# F-35: Death spiral is closing in **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2016, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493 "2016-09-21T11:23:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/181 "2017-01-30T16:39:52Z")
Look, man, the President managed to shave $600 million off the program cost in a week. Let’s just celebrate his effectiveness, okay? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2017, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/182 "2017-01-30T16:59:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > This is like the fly that rides on the chariot saying, “My, what a dust I do raise!” 😃 LOL no emoticon on this forum suffices. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/183 "2017-01-31T15:48:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Look, man, the President managed to shave $600 million off the program cost in a week. Let’s just celebrate his effectiveness, okay? [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/31/trumps-claim-taking-credit-for-cutting-600-million-from-the-f-35-program](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/01/31/trumps-claim-taking-credit-for-cutting-600-million-from-the-f-35-program) The Washington Post gives Trump’s claim to credit of knocking $600m off the program Four Pinocchios. > [@](#): > > Trump, yet again, claims credit for decisions that were already made before he became president. Trump stated he “was able to get $600 million approximately off those planes,” thereby ending the “difficulty” and “no movement” in the program. > > Yet the Pentagon had already announced cost reductions of roughly $600 million before Trump began meeting with Lockheed Martin’s chief executive. Once again, we award Trump Pinocchios for taking undue credit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/184 "2017-01-31T16:29:53Z")
Whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/185 "2017-01-31T17:01:33Z")
(I just quoted you to continue that train of thought, not to dispute your fine suggestion that we simply look into Trump’s heart and see how good and effective he is.) ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/186 "2018-03-05T20:12:27Z")
**Bump** [Footage from the first operational deployment of an F-35 in a Marine Expeditionary Unit](https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=hs6k_1520276252), on location in the East China Sea. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/187 "2018-03-05T21:25:54Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Ravenman if you want to argue please do a better argument than “appeal to authority”. It’s boring and a logical fallacy. > > The article I quoted above confirms as an undeniable fact that the F-35 has zero margin for extra heat dissipation, because it can’t function if it’s fuel is too hot and it’s fuel is the coolant. So yeah actually since image / signal processing is my specialty for 20 years I have an insight here. Dr Gilmore is undoubtably a smart man but is his specialty image and signal processing? Note I am not doing an appeal to my authority, I’m telling you what is required in terms of processor power and heat dissipation from my experience to achieve what they have promised in Block3F, feel free to independently do some research and confirm this. Wait, _what?_ Ok, so your main thesis is that some of the fancier software for the aircraft is years late. And that some of the features that they plan to offer need more processing power than what is specced for the plane. Well, first of all, optimization can work wonders if you’re willing to pay the cost in labor. It is entirely possible to get enormous speedups with better algorithms, inner loop optimizations, and so on. The field of image processing has in fact found many such tricks over the years - the methods they started with 7+ years ago are already obsolete. And second, umm, over the last 7 years there have been ever smaller and more powerful processors available. In fact, Nvidia just released a new wonder-architecture that is supposed to be enough for level 4 autonomy on 50 watts. Now, yes, going to a new hardware platform would be very expensive. There are all these verification steps, interfacing to the old architecture, qualifying the new circuit boards with the new chips, and so on. Probably take 3-5 years with 100+ people. But if that’s what it takes, it can be done. And the F-35 is very much flyable and somewhat fight-able even without these features. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/188 "2018-03-05T21:57:51Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > … Now, yes, going to a new hardware platform would be very expensive. There are all these verification steps, interfacing to the old architecture, qualifying the new circuit boards with the new chips, and so on. Probably take 3-5 years with 100+ people. But if that’s what it takes, it can be done. And the F-35 is very much flyable and somewhat fight-able even without these features. While it probably will end up costing an appalling amount (like most government work) the concept was that the F-35 was designed to make hardware updates easier: [The F-35 With Software Upgradeability Built In](http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the-f-35-with-software-upgradeability-built-in/) ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/189 "2018-03-05T22:29:54Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > While it probably will end up costing an appalling amount (like most government work) the concept was that the F-35 was designed to make hardware updates easier: [The F-35 With Software Upgradeability Built In](http://www.sldinfo.com/whitepapers/the-f-35-with-software-upgradeability-built-in/) Yeah, makes sense. And coremelt keeps ranting on about not having anywhere to dissipate the waste heat or not enough power. Like, really dude? It’s a jet fighter. I don’t think he has any idea what he’s talking about. In fact the aircraft can potentially produce so much power that on paper it can drive a laser weapon. Mere machine vision is 2-3 orders of magnitude smaller. Now, yeah, you won’t be able to just cram in a circuit board festooned with the most power hungry GPUs into the same slot that whatever it currently has occupies. There are limits and any major modifications to the airframe such as upsizing it’s alternator (I assume that is what it ultimately has - an engine driven alternator) or adding new cooling channels aren’t going to be cheap. But I’m beginning to get the idea that coremelt is not a credible or rational poster. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/190 "2018-03-05T23:02:43Z")
As a reminder, I bumped the thread earlier today after it had been dormant over a year, so “coremelt keeps ranting” is a bit inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/191 "2018-05-22T12:29:31Z")
According to the commander of the Israeli Air Force, the F-35 has [popped its combat cherry.](https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/IAF-commander-Israel-first-to-use-F-35-jet-in-combat-558030) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/192 "2018-10-12T04:05:31Z")
Updating this thread: > [@](#): > > The US military has temporarily grounded its entire fleet of F-35 fighter jets in the wake of a crash in South Carolina last month. > > Inspections are to be carried out on faulty fuel tubes. > > An official report questioned earlier this year whether the F-35 was ready for combat after dozens of faults were found. > > The F-35 is the largest and most expensive weapons programme of its type in the world. > **[F-35 jets: US military grounds entire fleet](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45827795)** > > The F-35 is the largest and most expensive weapons programme of its type in the world. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/193 "2018-10-12T15:35:17Z")
I think Japan has followed suit. I haven’t heard about the UK, but they have probably done similar things. It’s pretty standard with a new fighter when they encounter what might be a systemic problem. I think that some of the original fuel tubes had faults, but the newer ones don’t, so they are going to ground everything until they figure out where the older ones are and replace them. That said, the US has nearly 400 of the things in service or working up at this point, and we’ve been delivering them to the allies who bought into the program, so it doesn’t seem to be in a death spiral. The program actually seems to be accelerating, this small set back aside. The other 5th generation planes being deployed are far, far behind this, and F-35 now has more active air craft than our other 5th gen fighter, the F-22. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/194 "2018-10-15T01:15:01Z")
> [@XT](#): > > and F-35 now has more active air craft than our other 5th gen fighter, the F-22. And it sounds like several of the F-22 were likely damaged at Tyndall Air Base during Hurricane Michael. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/195 "2018-10-15T02:27:26Z")
> [@Tangent](#): > > And it sounds like several of the F-22 were likely damaged at Tyndall Air Base during Hurricane Michael. How much do these cost? Why wouldn’t you fly them out of the way? ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/196 "2018-10-15T02:55:11Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > How much do these cost? > > Why wouldn’t you fly them out of the way? Read an interesting [article](http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24204/setting-the-record-straight-on-why-fighter-jets-cant-all-simply-fly-away-to-escape-storms) on this very question the other day. Among the reasons: the planes can be in various states of readiness depending on the maintenance being done, they’re not designed to be simply loaded onto a transport, and priority was given to evacuating personnel and dependents. Frankly I don’t know enough about military aviation to judge the credibility of the article but it seems legit. Of course, the primary question is why you would locate these planes in a hurricane zone to begin. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/197 "2018-10-15T05:01:49Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > … Of course, the primary question is why you would locate these planes in a hurricane zone to begin. Air superiority fighters (like the F-22) are often positioned near the coast to be able to intercept hostile (or potentially hostile) foreign aircraft. Not much point in sticking them all in Kansas and leaving the coasts undefended. We want them in places like Alaska, Guam, California, and yes, Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/198 "2018-10-15T06:40:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Air superiority fighters (like the F-22) are often positioned near the coast to be able to intercept hostile (or potentially hostile) foreign aircraft. Not much point in sticking them all in Kansas and leaving the coasts undefended. We want them in places like Alaska, Guam, California, and yes, Florida. Yeah, but you’d think they’d build them protected hangers or something. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/199 "2018-10-15T09:30:39Z")
There was no NEED to station air interdiction fighters at Tindale. Alas, the stationing of aircraft and crews/ ships/ army/ marine units is a political football. See any of the previous Base Realignment And Closure (BRAC) attempts. How influential are your congress critters and senators? Does the president need votes for some legislation? Can the party maintain their majority? Hardened hangers for bomb or wind defense aren’t cheap. The military is just like many on the gulf coast; never had one that powerful in XXXX years and the storm did intensify dramatically. > **[Base Realignment and Closure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_Realignment_and_Closure)** > > Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) is a process by a United States federal government commission to increase United States Department of Defense efficiency by coordinating the realignment and closure of military installations following the end of the Cold War. More than 350 installations have been closed in five BRAC rounds: 1988, 1991, 1993, 1995, and 2005. These five BRAC rounds constitute a combined savings of $12 billion annually. > The Federal Property and Administrative Services Act of 19... ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2018, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/200 "2018-10-15T09:51:36Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > Of course, the primary question is why you would locate these planes in a hurricane zone to begin. Same reason the Russians keep fighters and interceptors in Tundra, Pakistan high up in the Himalayas, the Chinese on their coasts and the RAF in Scotland. Since that is where the likely enemy attack is going to come from. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493.md?page=11)