# F-35: Death spiral is closing in **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2016, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493 "2016-09-21T11:23:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2019, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/261 "2019-06-14T03:05:36Z")
If accurate, this is a pretty damning article - [America Is Stuck With a $400 Billion Stealth Fighter That Can’t Fight](https://www.thedailybeast.com/america-is-stuck-with-a-dollar400-billion-stealth-fighter-that-cant-fight?ref=home). > [@](#): > > But startling reports by trade publication Defense News on Wednesday revealed flaws that previously only builder Lockheed Martin, the military, and the plane’s foreign buyers knew about. > > The newly-exposed problems underscore the potential fragility of American air power as the armed services work to replace more and more old fighters with as many as 2,300 F-35s while also reconfiguring to confront the increasingly deadly Chinese and Russian air forces. > > The problems might also help to explain why acting defense secretary Patrick Shanahan reportedly described the F-35 program as “fucked up.” It cites this piece in [Defense News](https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/06/12/the-pentagon-is-battling-the-clock-to-fix-serious-unreported-f-35-problems/). > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — Over the past several years, U.S. Defense Department leaders have gone from citing technical problems as their biggest concern for the F-35 program to bemoaning the expense of buying and sustaining the aircraft. > > But the reality may be worse. According to documents exclusively obtained by Defense News, the F-35 continues to be marred by flaws and glitches that, if left unfixed, could create risks to pilot safety and call into question the fighter jet’s ability to accomplish key parts of its mission: > > F-35B and F-35C pilots, compelled to observe limitations on airspeed to avoid damage to the F-35’s airframe or stealth coating. Cockpit pressure spikes that cause “excruciating” ear and sinus pain. Issues with the helmet-mounted display and night vision camera that contribute to the difficulty of landing the F-35C on an aircraft carrier. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/262 "2019-10-13T17:49:45Z")
Saw [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDujFhvgUzI) cool video from Real Engineering that I thought I’d put in this thread if anyone is interested. He goes over the program and talks about what we know. It’s kind of a long video, but interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/263 "2019-10-18T19:28:51Z")
Reports are indicating that Russian S-300 and S-400 air-defense radars/systems [have failed to detect Israeli F-35s.](https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25499/Russian_S_300s __S_400s_Fail_to_Detect_Israeli_F_35s_Flying_Over_Syria__ Reports#.XaoSNOhKhPY) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/264 "2019-10-18T19:34:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Reports are indicating that Russian S-300 and S-400 air-defense radars/systems [have failed to detect Israeli F-35s.](https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25499/Russian_S_300s __S_400s_Fail_to_Detect_Israeli_F_35s_Flying_Over_Syria__ Reports#.XaoSNOhKhPY) Yeah, I saw that but…I’m skeptical, especially about the S-400. Basically, my WAG is either the Russian’s deliberately ignored the incursions (i.e. they saw them and did nothing), or it was a training or equipment issue. Myself, I’m leaning towards the Russian’s deliberately letting it go so as not to give away too much wrt their capabilities. One day they might need to demonstrate that they CAN in fact see an F-35, so no point doing it now, especially when it’s just Assad getting hammered, and not them. No skin off their vodka. YMMV. I also saw a report that someone in India (I think…this is an IIRC moment and I’m too lazy to look it up) DID manage to (fairly easily) see J-20, China’s stealth knockoff of the F-35. I’m a touch less skeptical here, but it might not mean what the folks who wrote the piece THINK it means, as often the US will deliberately make our stealth aircraft less stealthy if they are going to be at a public exhibition. There are actually a number of systems to do this for the US, and since the Chinese stole the plans I figure they probably have something similar. I know the Russian’s do this as well. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/265 "2019-10-18T19:42:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Reports are indicating that Russian S-300 and S-400 air-defense radars/systems [have failed to detect Israeli F-35s.](https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25499/Russian_S_300s __S_400s_Fail_to_Detect_Israeli_F_35s_Flying_Over_Syria__ Reports#.XaoSNOhKhPY) Both have VHF and S band Surveillance RADARs and unless Lockheed has managed to alter the laws of physics, that not possible. The ‘35 (and ‘22) aren’t in any case optimised against surveillance RADARs anyway, rather they are designed to defeat fire control RADARs in the higher frequency ranges. Plus reading the article nothing suggests they weren’t detected… detecting a ‘35 is not a problem, it’s getting a good enough read to fire a weapon at it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/266 "2019-10-18T19:57:41Z")
> [@XT](#): > > YMMV. I also saw a report that someone in India (I think…this is an IIRC moment and I’m too lazy to look it up) DID manage to (fairly easily) see J-20, China’s stealth knockoff of the F-35. I’m a touch less skeptical here, but it might not mean what the folks who wrote the piece THINK it means, as often the US will deliberately make our stealth aircraft less stealthy if they are going to be at a public exhibition. There are actually a number of systems to do this for the US, and since the Chinese stole the plans I figure they probably have something similar. I know the Russian’s do this as well. The Indians, who back in February thought a [slow big ass Mi-17 was in fact a fast jet and shot it down?](https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/budgam-mi-17-crash-iaf-chief-admits-big-mistake-1606217-2019-10-04) Who also sent Su-30 against, [a birthday party balloon? And fired a missile at it?](https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/balloon-that-was-downed-by-iafs-sukhoi-30mki-had-come-in-from-pakistan-top-government-sources/articleshow/50744503.cms?fbclid=IwAR2TsF_Osxm2cQZ2q2x6XQO3DdSNVPYR0qUEJ5f2CRMeKTgf6RfSzspOujk&from=mdr) I’ll admit I am (very) biased here, but…yeah. Any stealth aircraft with a large vertical stabiliser is detectable in HF, VHF and to an extent L bands. The F35, F22, J20, Su-57 all are so detectable. Unless they have several feet thick Radar absorbent coating. These aircraft are optimised to be low observable against higher frequency radars, like fire control radars onboard fighters, SAM sites and Active homing missiles. Especially for the F22, being detected is not the end of the world. (FYI, the J20 is not a Chinese knockoff of the F35, it’s an original design. The A/C you are looking for is the J31, and it’s not in production.) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/267 "2019-10-18T19:58:55Z")
I agree – I would not jump to the conclusion that the F-35 can “defeat” the radars of those systems. It’s more plausible to me, knowing nothing more than what that article said, that the crews were asleep or that the F-35s took a more circuitous route than depicted on the Powerpoint slide. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/268 "2020-03-02T15:08:52Z")
Elon Musk has an interesting idea: > [@](#): > > Billionaire entrepreneur and SpaceX founder Elon Musk has told the U.S. Air Force the fighter era is over. “The really dangerous future” is autonomous drone warfare, Musk said Feb. 28 during the annual Air Warfare Symposium here. Musk said he does not necessarily like this idea but it will become reality. > > Another controversial opinion he offered is that the Lockheed Martin F-35 should have a competitor. > > A few hours after his presentation, Musk elaborated on Twitter: “The competitor should be a drone fighter plane that’s remote controlled by a human, but with its maneuvers augemented by autonomy. The F-35 would have no chance against it.” > **[Musk Tells USAF Fighter Era Is Over | Aviation Week Network](https://aviationweek.com/shows-events/air-warfare-symposium/musk-tells-usaf-fighter-era-over)** > > “The really dangerous future” is autonomous drone warfare, SpaceX Founder Elon Musk said Feb. 28 during the annual Air Warfare Symposium in Orlando. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/269 "2020-03-02T15:21:59Z")
I generally disagree. Air-to-air combat is increasingly about detection and missile capability, not physical endurance. It would be great to have autonomous/remotely piloted fighters, if we can figure out how to guarantee data links over hundreds or thousands of miles or how to trust AI with killing people… but for the next couple decades, better sensors and better weapons are the far smarter investment. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/270 "2020-03-02T15:41:31Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Elon Musk has an interesting idea: DOD, and other nations, have been working on semi-autonomous fighters to escort and be controlled by manned fighters. They have been for a while now. Part of our ground forces modernization is also looking at the development of semi-autonomous support and combat vehicles. I have a sense some of those USAF leaders he was revealing his big new ideas to were thinking something along the lines of “No shit, Sherlock.” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/271 "2020-03-02T15:59:24Z")
OK Elon, if you think so, then develop such a drone. Nothing stops you. Go ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/272 "2020-03-02T17:28:00Z")
Well, he’d probably develop a fighter plane that he bills as autonomous, but in reality the pilot [has to apply light pressure to the throttle and stick the whole time.](https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/holding-steering-wheel-while-autopilot) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/273 "2020-03-02T18:32:37Z")
We have the same problem with fully autonomous aircraft that we do with BVR weapons: 99% of the wars we fight require clear FOF identification and other aircraft are just as likely to be friendly as hostile. So we don’t bother deploying F-22s overseas the rules of engagement require the pilot to visually identify the target, which takes the F-22’s biggest advantage away. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/274 "2020-03-03T15:52:59Z")
Well not really. The stealth characteristics of the Raptor obscure the fact that it was designed as the ultimate fighter for all scenarios and its vectored thrust engines make it a matchless WVR fighter as well. In the WVR sphere only the latest Su35 come close. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/275 "2021-02-26T15:01:09Z")
> **[The US Air Force Quietly Admits the F-35 Is a Failure](https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/320295-the-us-air-force-quietly-admits-the-f-35-is-a-failure)** > > The F-35 is such a problem child that it's difficult even to summarize all its issues. Now, the USAF has finally admitted that the F-35 is... ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/276 "2021-02-26T15:12:08Z")
In hindsight, sounds like the best solution (back in the 1990s) would have been: - **Air Force** : Build a lot more Raptors and make them more air-to-ground-ish, while keeping the A-10 Warthogs and proceeding with more and more advanced F-15s; - **Navy** : Go with an entirely Super Hornet fleet - **Marines** : Maybe go without fighters after retirement of the Harrier. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/277 "2021-02-26T20:54:53Z")
I’d go a bit further. Let the Army fly its own planes again, transfer the A-10 to them, and decide whether it makes more sense to have the Army or the Air Force do the logistics of most airlifting. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/278 "2021-02-27T03:12:04Z")
I’ve seen, more than once, stories about the US already testing a [6th generation fighter.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DkRRFBlMqU&ab_channel=DefenseUpdates) No idea if the sources are any good but it makes sense if the F35 is already unfavoured. ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/279 "2021-03-01T17:22:29Z")
Bit of a hijack but I recently had a UFO sighting on the outskirts of my town which is known for containing a high value national target. It appeared to be a hovering car-sized object floating a few building heights above the ground. We could make out it was metallic and vaguely plane shaped but couldn’t see much detail. It definitely wasn’t a Harrier. My wife and I drove toward it and got a little closer before it disappeared. At the time we theorized it could be some type of new hovering drone from the military base 120 miles away. This thread reminded me of the F-35 and after looking up more pics from different angles online I’m confident that’s what it was. Pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2021, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493/280 "2021-07-16T16:20:43Z")
More problems: > A total of 46 [F-35 stealth fighters](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41362/switzerland-chooses-f-35-as-its-next-fighter-jet) are currently without functioning engines due to an ongoing problem with the heat-protective coating on their turbine rotor blades becoming worn out faster than was expected. With the engine maintenance center now facing a backlog on repair work, frontline F-35 fleets have been hit, with the [U.S. Air Force’s fleet](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40142/air-force-general-says-current-generation-f-35as-not-worth-including-in-high-end-wargames) facing the most significant availability shortfall. > **[Fifteen Percent Of U.S. Air Force F-35s Don’t Have Working Engines](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/41538/fifteen-percent-of-u-s-air-force-f-35s-dont-have-working-engines)** > > Marine Corps, Navy, and foreign F-35s are also being impacted by ongoing problems with the jets’ engines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-death-spiral-is-closing-in/766493.md?page=13)