# F-35: top gun or 'dog' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914 "2013-08-22T22:22:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/241 "2013-09-06T01:29:26Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > You’ve been around a while, and still you resort to posts that are nothing but personal attacks. My my. > > If you have any info, why not give it, otherwise … I gave you info. The 117 was retired in 2008. It was always an attack fighter, not an air superiority fighter. The stealth wasn’t a gimmick or stunt. You don’t know what you are talking about on this subject and are ignorant about even the basics. What more is there really to say? Oh, have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/242 "2013-09-06T03:59:05Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > You’ve been around a while, and still you resort to posts that are nothing but personal attacks. My my. > > If you have any info, why not give it, otherwise … That’s because you posted an extremely uninformed post. And that’s the polite version. It’s not like you can’t pull up information on the plane. The F-117 was a leapfrog in technology. It’s been 30 years and other countries are just now introducing stealth aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/243 "2013-09-06T13:17:22Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > I have no idea what you’re trying to argue here. No F117A’s were ever downed by infrared missiles The F-117 was never flown against any country that had an air force. That’s its limitation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/244 "2013-09-06T13:49:07Z")
Iraq didn’t have an air force? Serbia? Seriously, whatever your background, you need to stop making things up. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/245 "2013-09-06T13:49:31Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The F-117 was never flown against any country that had an air force. That’s its limitation. I could have sworn that Iraq had an air force… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/246 "2013-09-06T13:54:23Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The F-117 was never flown against any country that had an air force. That’s its limitation. :rolleyes: From [here](http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/militaryaircraft/p/f117.htm): > [@](#): > > Operational History of the F-117A: > > Due to the extreme secrecy of the F-117 program, the aircraft were first based at isolated Tonopah Test Range Airport in Nevada as part of the 4450th Tactical Group. To aid in protecting the secret, official records at the time listed the 4450th as being based at Nellis Air Force Base and flying A-7 Corsair IIs. It was not until 1988 that the Air Force acknowledged the existence of the “stealth fighter” and released a fuzzy photograph of the aircraft. Two years later, in April 1990, it was publically revealed when two F-117As arrived at Nellis during daylight hours. > > With the crisis in Kuwait developing that August, the F-117A, now assigned to the 37th Tactical Fighter Wing, deployed to the Middle East. Operation Desert Shield/Storm was the aircraft’s first large-scale combat debut, though two had been secretly used as part of the invasion of Panama in 1989. A key component of the coalition air strategy, the F-117A flew 1,300 sorties during the Gulf War and struck 1,600 targets. The forty-two F-117As of the 37th TFW succeeded in scoring an 80% hit rate and were among the few aircraft cleared to strike targets in downtown Baghdad. > Returning from the Gulf, the F-117A fleet was shifted to Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico in 1992, and became part of the 49th Fighter Wing. In 1999, the F-117A was used in the Kosovo War as part of Operation Allied Force. During the conflict, a F-117A flown by Lieutenant Colonel Dale Zelko was downed by a specially modified SA-3 Goa surface-to-air missile. Serbian forces were able to briefly detect the aircraft by operating their radar on unusually long wavelengths. Though Zelko was rescued, the remains of the aircraft were captured and some of the technology compromised. > > In the years since the September 11 attacks, the F-117A has flown combat missions in support of both Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom. In the latter case, it dropped the opening bombs of the war when F-117s struck a leadership target in the conflict’s opening hours in March 2003. Though a highly successful aircraft, the F-117A’s technology was becoming outmoded by 2005 and maintenance costs were rising. With the introduction of the F-22 Raptor and development of the F-35 Lightning II, Program Budget Decision 720 (issued December 28, 2005) proposed retiring the F-117A fleet by October 2008. Though the US Air Force had intended to keep the aircraft in service until 2011, it decided to begin retiring it to enable the purchase of additional F-22s. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/247 "2013-09-06T14:01:11Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The F-117 was never flown against any country that had an air force. That’s its limitation. That’s not true either. Beyond that you really don’t understand the function of the plane. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/248 "2013-09-06T14:04:29Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s not true either. Beyond that you really don’t understand the function of the plane. Nope, he doesn’t, since it’s rather moot if it flew against a country with an air force or not (it did, but it doesn’t really matter). The key question is…did it fly against any country with air defenses? Answer: yes. In the case of Iraq, pretty modern and very dense air defenses, especially in an around the capital. The more Gack talks on this subject (or others, considering other threads I’ve seen him in) the more apparent it becomes that he doesn’t really know or understand the topics he’s expounding on. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/249 "2013-09-06T14:09:20Z")
Should we tell him about the B-2? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/250 "2013-09-06T14:09:44Z")
Why confuse him? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/251 "2013-09-06T16:01:30Z")
Just doing a little bit of research … it’s just debating persons who substitute insult for info, but … what ya gonna do … The F-117 is flown with SEAD support from planes like the F-16 as well as AWACS support. If you read about the Kosovo shoot down you’ll see that there was a failure of support, with the SEAD airplanes not disabling radars capable of detecting the F-117. Article … [http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj02/sum02/lambeth.html](http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj02/sum02/lambeth.html) It would be interesting if any info could be shed on the subject of stealtiness and what it really means … but I can see this ain’t the place it’s gonna happen. Like I said, the F-117 is a joke. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/252 "2013-09-06T16:26:51Z")
You know, if you are going to provide a cite it would make good sense to actually bother reading it for comprehension: > [@](#): > > Although the Air Force has remained understandably silent about the confluence of events it believes occasioned the F-117’s downing, according to press reports, Air Force assessors concluded, after conducting a formal postmortem, **that a lucky combination of low-technology tactics, rapid learning, and astute improvisation had converged in one fleeting instant to enable an SA-3 not operating in its normal, radar-guided mode to down the aircraft.** Undoubtedly, enemy spotters in Italy reported the aircraft’s takeoff from Aviano, and IADS operators in Serbia, as well as those in Bosnia and along the Montenegrin coast, could have assembled enough glimpses of its position en route to its target from scattered radars to cue a SAM battery near Belgrade to fire at the appropriate moment. \*\*The aircraft had already dropped one laser-guided bomb (LGB) near Belgrade, offering the now-alerted air defenders yet another clue. \*\*(The Air Force is said to have ruled out theories hinging on a stuck weapons-bay door, a descent to below 15,000 feet, or a hit by AAA.)17 My emphasis. Stealth isn’t magic. It lowers the detection of an aircraft, it doesn’t make it invisible…nor invulnerable. The enemy is allowed to get lucky sometimes. It’s ridiculous, in the extreme, to say a weapons system that faced thousands of combat sorties and was shot down ONCE as ‘a joke’ and shows vast and profound ignorance, especially in light of the fact that this was the first generation stealth combat fighter and has been retired now for over 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/253 "2013-09-06T16:43:46Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > Like I said, the F-117 is a joke. Only if the criteria for “joke” is that one was shot down. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/254 "2013-09-06T18:37:35Z")
Here’s a question getting back to the F-35. Is it’s stealth enough to allow it to successfully strike the S-300 that’s being sold to Syria, or the S-400 or S-500? Or is it going to be a sitting duck for modern air defense systems? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/255 "2013-09-06T18:40:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Here’s a question getting back to the F-35. Is it’s stealth enough to allow it to successfully strike the S-300 that’s being sold to Syria, or the S-400 or S-500? Or is it going to be a sitting duck for modern air defense systems? [http://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/israel-orders-us-stealth-planes-to-counter-iran-syria-threat-2377/](http://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/israel-orders-us-stealth-planes-to-counter-iran-syria-threat-2377/) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/256 "2013-09-06T18:43:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > [http://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/israel-orders-us-stealth-planes-to-counter-iran-syria-threat-2377/](http://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/israel-orders-us-stealth-planes-to-counter-iran-syria-threat-2377/) Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/257 "2013-09-06T19:44:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Only if the criteria for “joke” is that one was shot down. The criteria for the joke was a stealth plane that flies with SEAD support. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/258 "2013-09-06T19:50:05Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The criteria for the joke was a stealth plane that flies with SEAD support. Unlike every other attack plane that has ever flown that needs it, right? Good grief, just when I thought it couldn’t get any sillier, you go and top yourself. Let me ask you something…how many non-stealth attack air craft were downed during the conflicts the F-117 participated in? Here’s a hint, chief…it was more than one. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/259 "2013-09-06T19:52:47Z")
> [@Gack](#): > > The criteria for the joke was a stealth plane that flies with SEAD support. What is it exactly that you did for the supposed defense contractor that you say you worked for? I know for sure you didn’t work in any anechoic chamber, but I think since you brought up the issue of your bona fides for making such bold statements, you should tell us a little more. ---
**Author:** ![Gack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecccb3/32.png) [@Gack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gack)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914/260 "2013-09-06T20:25:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > What is it exactly that you did for the supposed defense contractor that you say you worked for? I know for sure you didn’t work in any anechoic chamber, but I think since you brought up the issue of your bona fides for making such bold statements, you should tell us a little more. Analyses of one sort or another. I bounced around, never did the same job twice. The ‘bold’ statements are obvious to anyone who can think for 1 minute. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-35-top-gun-or-dog/666914.md?page=14)