# F\*ck the "long American tradition of armed resistance to intrusive government" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 29, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859 "2009-12-29T00:23:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/41 "2009-12-29T07:24:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Compared to what? Compared to a functioning democracy - somewhere with an independent press, with politicians less bought, where - for its own citizens - [habeas corpus.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Padilla_(prisoner)) prevails. Stuff like that. You’ve lost so many battles already it’s like the Black Knight threatening to strike back after he’s lost all his limbs: In terms of any ‘armed resistance’ to government’, it’s over. The corporations won and guns are the peoples comforter. ---
**Author:** ![lurking\_guest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/42 "2009-12-29T07:46:32Z")
…“With politicians less bought…”… Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Baldy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Gary\_Baldy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Baldy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/43 "2009-12-29T08:04:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And that didn’t count as the South had most of the Regulars on it’s side. > > In any case, I can’t see where (after 1776 and all that) any “armed resistance” actually worked in the USA where it did any good at all to further freedom and democracy. Harpers Ferry Raid seemed to have helped push the abolitionist movement to the White House. I believe a couples events in years after this event led to the first step in more freedom and democracy since the Jacksonian Era. ---
**Author:** ![lurking\_guest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/44 "2009-12-29T08:05:12Z")
You see, that’s the hard part for this Democracy. Those folks, with two folks working making $100,000/yr…they think…"…in the years to come…I can make much, much more…"… FORGET my “latch-key” kids. WE are making MONEY! And isn’t that ALL that matters? We have have our IRAs - our childrens futures. WHO really cares about ‘family dinners’ or when kids come home in the afternoons after school? Just keep your own damn room (with a computer and phone and television) and perhaps a small refrigerator and a stacking washer and dryer … Ahh…welll…mom…dad… What kind of wine at dinner? What kind of “talk” of relationship?" Is it ANY different, in ANY other country? Under ANY other type of Government? Of course not. Don’t keep lying. (Except that it works and you’ve been getting away with it for so long.) Where is your Conscience? I guess when it comes to money and pride…tra la la la la… Right-Wing Evangelicals will always continue to call it “entrepenurial.” You BASTARDS! ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/45 "2009-12-29T08:39:44Z")
> [@lurking\_guest](#): > > C’mon… it is really very simple. > > There are folks who BELIEVE that all poor people are POOR because they are LAZY. > > And then, there are folks who BELIEVE that people are poor because of childhood circumstances; because of brain chemistry; because of cultural differences. > > No matter. > > All things seem to be judged by what cohort DRAW the most Money. > > That would be… Wall Street…Politicians…Perhaps Religious Leaders…Heads of State… > > Oh… and that would NOT be …Families…Parents…Schools…Communities… > > (Those damned, neophyte, STUDPID people.) > > Obama. > Mitch McConnel > Tim Geithner > Alan Greenspan > George Bush > Tim Geitner > Larry Summers > Ben Bernanke > Bill Clinton > Hillary Clinton > Alan Greenspan > > Let us include those “in the know” from every single government on the face of the Earth. > > As Frederick Douglas once said, no one with Money or Power will ever give up Power or Money or Privilege without a FIGHT. > > And, right now…across the globe… those with the most assets are determining the governments of the entire globe. > > The Laws. The Legislatures. > > No matter their philosophies nor governments. > > $$$$$$ Money $$$$$ > > It matters NOT who made it. Only who HAS it. > > REPUBLICANS or DEMOCRATS in the UNITED STATES? > > A joke. > > America’s politics? > > A joke. > > The REAL promulagters of power have, and have had, power through the ages. > > Through great wealth and influence. > > They laugh at the “Masses.” > > The jerks who pick up garbage. > > Who work in factories. (Across the world.) > > Who stand at “Attendance” at high-end hotels and motels across the world. > > Who subserviantly serve on educational boards at local schools. > > Ha! > > Does THIS matter to people whom three or four or five homes exist across the globe? > > Who have boats sitting at moorings which bring millions to those buisnesses? > > Money. > > It seems. > > Matters more than anything. > > Really. > > Really? > > Perhaps we should give up care for every other human being on earth to those human beings whose goal is to make money and have have bigger and better “things.” > > THINGS. POWER. INFLUENCE. MONEY. > > THESE things matter more than THE GOOD of MANKIND… > > Here we are. > > BUT…we can fix it. > > OBAMA is NOT the answer. > > Conscience is. > > We have almost a year in our political system to try again. > > Let’s try again… > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Did you really need to type out your post this way? Did you really need to quote the whole thing to post a one-line response? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/46 "2009-12-29T08:48:26Z")
I did, because I need to emphasize how obnoxious and annoying it is. This is nothing against the poster personally, it’s just that I think people should try to conform to a certain standard of posting here and that includes typing out your post in a paragraph instead of just making a gigantic, long list of things. ---
**Author:** ![lurking\_guest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/47 "2009-12-29T09:21:21Z")
Argent Towers… Sorry about the “long list of things.” ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/48 "2009-12-29T09:37:57Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Did you really need to quote the whole thing to post a one-line response? What did you just do :smack: ---
**Author:** ![lurking\_guest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/49 "2009-12-29T11:54:59Z")
Alright…lets scrabble about posting etiquette… Crimminey… Obama has shown to be hmm hmmn…squared with the Money Folks. In EVERY country. At EVERY langitude and longitude. So funny. I HOPE every one of every IQ and every able to ‘drill down’ into reality … comes back to the reality that those with the “GOLD” rules. lDamn if it isn’t true that the OLIGARCHY around the entire WORLD .RULES. These folks from Russia to Dubai to Panama only wonder…hmmm…how can we touch these citizens to keep working for us? Obama? Ha! May as well be Newt Gingrich or Tom Delay. All these people - Obama, Larry Summers, Tim Geitner, Ben Bernanke, Rahm Eamanuel…Alan Greenspan…(The Clintons with NAFTA and GATT…shhhh) ALL CORPROTISTS…EVERY ONE. What is the difference between OBAMA in financial terms and Bush? Nothing. Shhhhh…they ALL share the SECRET…that will FOREVER be an advocate for ANYTHING that {{{{shiver}}}} gets, maintains, stands for, gains, increases, holds onto… MONEY. (Let us add “Power.”) We’ve been had. Keep filing. Keep teaching. Keep clearing roads. Keep working in banks and being very afraid of losing your job. Keep collecting garbage. Keep being firemen/women…keep being teachers…Keep delivering mail…keep driving trucks that deliver everthing into your brothers and sisters households, Where is YOUR “Million-Dollar” (OR, fifty-million dollar)…“parachute” if you are shoved out of your job and into another? There are THOUSANDS of folks who understand the Econony. And ECONOMICS. GET RID OF: Tim Geitner Larry Sommers Ben Bernanke Rahm Emanuel And any other person who wants to “Triangulate” the World without conscience. Obama. The first “Black” President. Hey, Guy… NOW you see how money rules. And you CAVED. What a friggin joke. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/50 "2009-12-29T12:44:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Obama. The first “Black” President. What on earth is this supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/51 "2009-12-29T12:46:33Z")
Ultimately, **lurking guest,** I do agree with a lot of your points. I really do think the world is driven by the dollar, in the end, and everyone - including politicians, who are even at the most powerful level simply civil servants - is in some way or another a thrall of this multinational corporation oligarchy, and especially of Arab oil-peddlers, plus China. I agree that Barack Obama is not a savior who is going to deliver us into a brave new world. But I’m one to talk - being a complete capitalist, a product of the American service economy and the upper middle class, and, when you get right down to it, a pretty greedy guy who loves luxuries of life and would probably live like Henry VIII if I had the means to do so. The idea of success energizes me and I’ve more or less bought into this money driven culture. At the same time I think an effort should be made to help the lower classes, and my answer to this is not welfare or public schools or college scholarships but the revitalization of American industry and skilled trades. For every college student in America there should be 50 students in trade-school. _This_ is what will make America strong. Alternative energy development will open up countless new jobs in everything from geology to metal fabrication and that is an avenue that _must_ be explored. My faith is in science and in man’s will to innovate. This has nothing to do with armed resistance, but actually, **lurking guest,** upon closer scrutiny of your posts I find myself not in disagreement with you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/52 "2009-12-29T12:54:10Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > What on earth is this supposed to mean? Clearly it “means” that “Obama” is “black.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/53 "2009-12-29T15:01:29Z")
"You know something people? I’m not black but there’s a whole lotsa times I wish I could say I’m not white.” — Frank Zappa, “Trouble Every Day,” 1967 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/54 "2009-12-29T15:03:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Clearly it “means” that “Obama” is “black.” Not quite. It means that ‘Obama’ is ‘black’. Regards, Shodan 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/55 "2009-12-29T16:45:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **lurking guest** , please stick to the subject. So far, nothing you have posted appears to be related to the topic of this thread. You might want to start your own thread. Then three more long off topic posts. > [@lurking\_guest](#): > > What a friggin joke. Not, however, a funny one. This is a Warning that you are not to deliberately post your off topic stream of consciousness blather in direct violation of a Mod’s order to stop. Do not hijack this thread, again. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/56 "2009-12-29T17:22:24Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Seriously. I believe the “American tradition of armed resistance to intrusive goverment” IS, by and large, a tradition of “nutjobs and criminals on parade.” Reinforcing my beliefs 😃 Seriously, I’m against guns but most of that opposition is fueled by people who think that a 1% increase in estate taxes calls for armed revolution. Keep your guns for personal safety if you want, but don’t lie to me and tell me you’re going to take down the government. If the government wants to collect more taxes on you, then you either move out or give them the money ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/57 "2009-12-29T18:08:38Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Seriously. I believe the “American tradition of armed resistance to intrusive goverment” IS, by and large, a tradition of “nutjobs and criminals on parade.” You’re missing the point. The groups cited were not involved in any kind of organized resistance against any government (federal, state, or municipal) except in some kind of dissociated internal fantasy; the only time they engaged in any kind of armed conflict was after committing a civil crime (armed robbery, assault, murder) and their stance was not a political one, but entirely reflexive. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And that didn’t count as the South had most of the Regulars on it’s side. > > In any case, I can’t see where (after 1776 and all that) any “armed resistance” actually worked in the USA where it did any good at all to further freedom and democracy. Not quite true. The Confederate States of America had two different land army commands under its armed forces; the Army of the Confederate States of America, mostly comprised of Regular (US) Army soldiers and officers, and the much larger Provisional Army of the Confederate States, which was mostly enlistees and conscripts. The high level commanders were typically ACSA, as they were professional soldiers. I guess one can quibble about whether an organization led by professional soldiers using equipment stolen or captured from the United States Army is the same as resistance by a privately armed citizenry, but it was armed resistance to what was perceived as unfair and intrusive governance of the South by the North. I’d have to agree that armed resistance against the government hasn’t produced any significant advance in liberty in post-Revolutionary War United States. Aside from the American Civil War and various American Indian resistance movements, most armed rebellion in the United States has been over taxation, and the aggressors have either aborted their plans (as in Shays Rebellion) or have been crushed. In fact, I’m having a hard time coming up with any historical incident in which an armed civilian population toppled a stable government by violence. Regimes have been toppled from within due to factionalizing or military revolt, taken over by revolutionary forced during and after invasion by a foreign power, have failed due to economic collapse and internal discord, and colonial puppet regimes have been displaced when the dominating power has lost interest or couldn’t provide funding to support continued governance, but I can’t think of a single instance in which a mass uprising and revolt by the civilian population has forced regime change. The closest I can come to this are the multiple European revolutions of 1848, from which the only resulting regime to emerge directly was the Second French Republic, though there were several liberalizations or capitulations by authoritarian or monarchial governments. Overthrows by military junta or internal power struggles typically result in less liberal regimes; see the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution of 1917, et cetera. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/58 "2009-12-29T18:58:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > the people who claim the necessity to invoke the right must embody that legitimacy, they must have grievances petitioned but not answered, their grievances must be legitimate or they cannot justifiably claim the right to armed resistance. Which is why I posted the link to the Dorr Rebellion, which illustrates all these points perfectly. For those who don’t want to read the full article: After the United States gained independence from Britain, the state of Rhode Island continued to operate under its original colonial charter, which included the provision that only the “propertied”- land owners- could vote. That had been a long standing tradition in English law and in the late Eighteenth century wasn’t that controversial; indeed one draft of the Federal constitution included such a provision. But by the middle of the Nineteenth century when more and more of the population were hired workers, the percentage of adult men eligible for the franchise progressively shrank. The problem was that the state legislature, consisting of people who had been voted in by the propertied, by definition had no political motive to change the rules. After repeated petitions to expand the franchise were ignored, an unsanctioned convention set up a rival governement, and the matter briefly came to blows. One bit of fallout from the whole affair was a Supreme Court ruling, [Luther v. Borden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_v._Borden) in which the court punted the entire question of how to decide if a state government was legitimate or not to the Federal Congress, although many of the legal issues in the case were later covered by the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/59 "2009-12-29T19:01:16Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > You’re missing the point. The groups cited were not involved in any kind of organized resistance against any government (federal, state, or municipal) except in some kind of dissociated internal fantasy; the only time they engaged in any kind of armed conflict was after committing a civil crime (armed robbery, assault, murder) … No I am not missing the point. The same can be said about most of the ‘actual’ militia groups out there – their resistance is some kind of shared confused fantasy. And there have been some of them too that resorted to crime to fund their – well, who knows what they intended to do with the money, maybe buy more guns? Hell, you could even throw the Manson family onto this pile. They had some bizarre idea that their killings would start a race war and topple society. Perhaps you imagine that this “tradition of armed resistance” has been carried out only by more organized groups with more concrete goals, and there have in fact been such groups. But they are a minority. If you want to cherry pick your resistance groups to make them seem loftier, or more menacing, or whatever, go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![lurking\_guest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2009, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859/60 "2009-12-30T06:18:55Z")
Because he was SUPPOSED to be, BELIEVED to be DIFFERENT. Uh…no… Black skin; carmel skin; white skin; Balkan skin; Irish skin; African skin; British skin; Indian skin; Hispanic/Latino skin; … What the HELL difference does it make? As long as MOST of the billions of folks on the planet keep making mone ($) for the top 1% in EV VERY country and 'under’EV VERY type of government… …‘they’ can sit back and laugh at you and I. WE keep things “normal.” We keep going to the ‘office’…to our IT jobs…to collecting the garbage and getting Bachelors and Masters and Doctorates…we just keep…BELIEVING and making money and actually thinking our education and jobs and possessions LIFT us above the riff-raff… Good job. The effin Oligarchy wins. You can’t BEGIN to IMAGINE how millions of dollars/yr is “low class”. Search. Learn. Google. Effff the political parties in the US. Silly me. I believe that the almost seven billion people on the face of the earth should have certain basic things before SOME folks get houses annd houses and boats and boats and millions and billions of dollars. And influence and power enough to screw billions…of folks…of real live human beings. Why should this be? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-ck-the-long-american-tradition-of-armed-resistance-to-intrusive-government/522859.md?page=4)