# F\>M transgender HS wrestler forced to wrestle girls & dominates - Would he be competitive vs boys **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 26, 2017, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809 "2017-02-26T05:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/41 "2017-02-27T01:05:34Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I don’t know. American people have a constitutional right to compete in sports? They have a constitutional right not to be discriminated against. It would be discrimination by sex, which is already illegal in public schools and in public businesses. Not that the Constitution has to enter into it. It’s clearly morally wrong to say that no trans person can compete in sports at all. You’ve just treated a minority differently for being a minority. Sure, you give a (likely erroneous) reason why trans women shouldn’t compete with women. You give no reason why trans men can’t compete with men, or why trans women can’t compete with men. You reveal that fairness isn’t what you are after. If it were, you would also consider what is fair to the trans athletes. But, no, only the “normal” people matter. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/42 "2017-02-27T01:08:41Z")
Also, “flaunting” can be appropriate. You can be ostentatiously showing off about how you don’t follow the rules. It’s not appropriate here, since the athlete in question is following the rules. But it can be appropriate when someone doesn’t even pretend to follow the rules. Trump, for example, might be said to be flaunting the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/43 "2017-02-27T02:25:55Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Im genuinely interested in reading some of this research. Could you post a link? The search function here doesn’t seem to be functioning for me. The science starts on Page 5, but the history in Page 1-4 provides a good context. Citations are on the final page, but authors are noted throughout the text. [http://transascity.org/cross-training-the-history-and-future-of-transgender-and-intersex-athletes-1/](http://transascity.org/cross-training-the-history-and-future-of-transgender-and-intersex-athletes-1/) ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/44 "2017-02-27T02:33:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > It’s been proven over and over again that males have an advantage in most sports. Assuming equal training and experience. Not really the point of this topic. > [@](#): > > Males are stronger. Females are more flexible. It’s just how our bodies are designed. But no citations regarding transgender persons who have undergone hormone therapy. > [@](#): > > I’m not in favor of any athlete being allowed to use drugs.Testosterone enhances performance. Almost all males produce testosterone. A transgender boy who is taking testosterone takes it to mimic the level of a cisgender boy. Not to gain super powers. The IOC and other major sporting bodies have actual physicians and medical researchers who have done the legwork on this. > [@](#): > > A person that wants to transition can wait until after their athletic career. Or forgo participating in athletics if they want to transition immediately. It’s their choice. A statement at opposition with reality, and very Trumpian in its implied assertion of control over our bodies. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/45 "2017-02-27T02:33:06Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The science starts on Page 5, but the history in Page 1-4 provides a good context. Citations are on the final page, but authors are noted throughout the text. > > [http://transascity.org/cross-training-the-history-and-future-of-transgender-and-intersex-athletes-1/](http://transascity.org/cross-training-the-history-and-future-of-transgender-and-intersex-athletes-1/) Thank you! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/46 "2017-02-27T02:35:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Oh no. I was actually trying to gently tease the person who felt that being pedantic on the word usage was a worthwhile contribution. You have the knowledge. For my purposes your posts are citable as authoritative on this subject. I had no intent to be critical of your post in any way. My apologies that it came off as otherwise! Thank you, I didn’t want to cause offense. I am a professional researcher in this area but that doesn’t mean I am the “trans pope” or infallible. The problem is in these arguments, no one really posts citations proving any sort of real systematic and systemic advantage, they base it off their gut feel and “common sense.” ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/47 "2017-02-27T02:58:27Z")
For those who haven’t [read the article](http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/hurst-euless-bedford_news/article134761654.html#storylink=cpy): > [@Star-Telegram](#): > > **While Beggs has said he’d prefer to wrestle against boys, University Interscholastic League rules force Beggs to compete as a girl.** The UIL uses an athletes birth certificate to determine gender, a measure overwhelmingly approved by the state’s school superintendents a year ago. > > The rule prohibits girls from wrestling in the boys division and vice versa. > > UIL provides an exception for a steroid that is prescribed by a medical practitioner for a valid medical purpose. **The UIL has reviewed Beggs’ medical records and granted him permission to compete while taking testosterone.** Again, for those who missed it, Beggs would prefer to compete against boys but the University Interscholastic League will not allow him to do so. The UIL _does_ allow him to take testosterone, as they have decided that he has a valid medical reason. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/48 "2017-02-27T03:19:06Z")
The UIL acceded to political pressure. That doesn’t mean letting one athlete take banned drugs is right. It’s sickening to think hundreds of athletes have to compete against this special snowflake jacked up on Testosterone. Athletic organizations spends millions of dollars on testing for banned substances. Researching the latest drugs that clever cheats use. Russia just had athletes banned from the last Olympics. Then we make an exception for a few people. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/49 "2017-02-27T03:23:48Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The UIL acceded to political pressure. That doesn’t mean letting one athlete take banned drugs is right. > > It’s sickening to think hundreds of athletes have to compete against this special snowflake jacked up on > Testosterone. 1. They’re not banned for legitimate medical use. Which this is. 2. Your second paragraph and continued pertinacity towards engaging in a fact-based debate says all we need to know about your real objection. You would have saved us a lot of time typing if you’d simply been more forthright about your motivation earlier. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/50 "2017-02-27T03:24:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The UIL acceded to political pressure. That doesn’t mean letting one athlete take banned drugs is right. > > It’s sickening to think hundreds of athletes have to compete against this special snowflake jacked up on Testosterone. > > Athletic organizations spends millions of dollars on testing for banned substances. Researching the latest drugs that clever cheats use. Why the _fuck_ are you calling him a special snowflake? Or a cheater? Did you even read the article? He tried to do the right thing and a bunch of backward, Bible-thumping assholes wouldn’t let him. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/51 "2017-02-27T03:24:51Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > For those who haven’t [read the article](http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/hurst-euless-bedford_news/article134761654.html#storylink=cpy): Which seemingly is half the posters in the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/52 "2017-02-27T03:33:32Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Really?:rolleyes: Do you know what adds to _every_ conversation? Mindless pedantic nitpicking over the words that are clearly understood even if technically incorrect. Boy howdy – your contributions to this discussion are utterly invaluable. Perhaps you could go out and buy yourself a thesaurus so as to further drop nuggets like this into grownup Conversations:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/53 "2017-02-27T03:37:03Z")
…nothing to add to the thread: but just wanted to say that Una Persson is awesome: and one of the reasons I still hang out at the dope. Kia kaha Una. Keep fighting the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/54 "2017-02-27T03:44:14Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Which seemingly is half the posters in the thread. Although I guess to be fair, the first link the the OP doesn’t actually go anywhere. The second link, which is described as a video, goes to the newspaper article (which does contains a video). ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/55 "2017-02-27T03:48:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > 1. They’re not banned for legitimate medical use. Which this is. > > 2. Your second paragraph and continued pertinacity towards engaging in a fact-based debate says all we need to know about your real objection. You would have saved us a lot of time typing if you’d simply been more forthright about your motivation earlier. My only motivation is to protect the integrity of sports. I don’t give a crap if this guy is transgender. That’s not the issue. Doping and the unfair advantage it creates is the issue. If you’re taking banned drugs then you don’t get to compete. I had injuries that would have healed quicker with steroids. I couldn’t take them. That’s the rules of athletics. It sucked but I knew the rules when I joined the team. Making an exception for anyone is wrong. Regardless of their reason. A choice has to been made. Transition immediately or wait a few years until after athletics are done. Caitlyn Jenner delayed her transition to raise a family. It’s a choice. Raising a family meant more to her at that time. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/56 "2017-02-27T03:54:53Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > \*\*My only motivation is to protect the integrity of sports. > \*\* > I don’t give a crap if this guy is transgender. That’s not the issue. > > Doping and the unfair advantage it creates is the issue. > > If you’re taking banned drugs then you don’t get to compete. > > I had injuries that would have healed quicker with steroids. I couldn’t take them. That’s the rules of athletics. It sucked but I knew the rules when I joined the team. > > Making an exception for anyone is wrong. Regardless of their reason. > > A choice has to been made. Transition immediately or wait a few years after athletics are done. > > Jenner delayed her transition to raise a family. It’s a choice. Bullshit. He wouldn’t have had an advantage if he had been allowed to compete in the gender he identified as. He tried to do the right thing. The League, in an effort to stir up this kind of trouble for the transgendered, adopted a policy guaranteed to cause problems. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/57 "2017-02-27T04:09:38Z")
**Mr Shine** , you’ve proven how very clever you are, so now drop this hijack. It is disrupting this conversation. No warning issued. But drop it. > [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Flout. > [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > I’m sorry if I’m flaunting the rules of behaviour you deem appropriate. > [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Mainly trying to correct the extremely annoying flaunt/flout misuse that **acey** did first, and then you did again even after he had been corrected, and further corrections still went over your head.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/58 "2017-02-27T04:14:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > If you’re taking banned drugs then you don’t get to compete. > > I had injuries that would have healed quicker with steroids. I couldn’t take them. That’s the rules of athletics. It sucked but I knew the rules when I joined the team. You are in error about the rules. Beggs knows what they are and is obeying them. > [@the Star-Telegram](#): > > **While Beggs has said he’d prefer to wrestle against boys, University Interscholastic League rules force Beggs to compete as a girl.** The UIL uses an athletes birth certificate to determine gender, a measure overwhelmingly approved by the state’s school superintendents a year ago. > > The rule prohibits girls from wrestling in the boys division and vice versa. > > UIL provides an exception for a steroid that is prescribed by a medical practitioner for a valid medical purpose. **The UIL has reviewed Beggs’ medical records and granted him permission to compete while taking testosterone.** ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/59 "2017-02-27T06:45:07Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I don’t give a crap if this guy is transgender. That’s not the issue. > > Doping and the unfair advantage it creates is the issue. > > If you’re taking banned drugs then you don’t get to compete. > > I had injuries that would have healed quicker with steroids. I couldn’t take them. That’s the rules of athletics. It sucked but I knew the rules when I joined the team. As has been noted before, medical use of testosterone isn’t banned and he has explicitly been given permission to take the supplements. It’s not as if he’s roiding himself up like Hulk Hogan here, and he wouldn’t be at any special advantage if he were allowed to wrestle in the men’s division _like he wants to._ The issue here isn’t the supplements - it’s the state commission that wants to put heel heat on him and paint transgendered folk as sexual deviants whose existence is an affront to the natural order of things. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/60 "2017-02-27T07:19:40Z")
See, I think there’s a really valid debate here getting buried by all the hysterical shouts of “misgendering!” and “transphobia!”. **Una Persson** , I’m curious what you think is the appropriate approach to handling transgender athletes. Since in this case we’re talking about a FtM person, I think if he were actually allowed to compete against cis boys (which we’ve established is what he wanted but was not allowed to do), he’d be at a disadvantage. And if an MtF person competes against cis girls, they are at a natural advantage. That’s an anatomical problem that you really can’t get around in any completely fair way. What is the correct solution to that problem, in your view? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809.md?page=4)