# F\>M transgender HS wrestler forced to wrestle girls & dominates - Would he be competitive vs boys **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 26, 2017, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809 "2017-02-26T05:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/61 "2017-02-27T07:51:51Z")
I don’t see how this is fair to the girls who don’t stand much chance with weight classes against someone who has the extra muscle mass. It’s hard to make fair rules that apply to such a small percentage. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/62 "2017-02-27T11:49:38Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > See, I think there’s a really valid debate here getting buried by all the hysterical shouts of “misgendering!” and “transphobia!”. The “shouts” aren’t “hysterical” if people are actually misgendering and being transphobic, you know. And there are a few spectacular examples in this thread. It’s not the people calling them out who are burying the debate. > [@](#): > > **Una Persson** , I’m curious what you think is the appropriate approach to handling transgender athletes. Since in this case we’re talking about a FtM person, I think if he were actually allowed to compete against cis boys (which we’ve established is what he wanted but was not allowed to do), he’d be at a disadvantage. And if an MtF person competes against cis girls, they are at a natural advantage. That’s an anatomical problem that you really can’t get around in any completely fair way. What is the correct solution to that problem, in your view? IANUna but if he wants to wrestle boys, he should be able to wrestle boys. If he’s at a “natural disadvantage” (and as noted this is not a cut-and-dried as it may seem), I’m pretty sure he’s aware of it. Maybe he’ll have to work harder. So what? It’s still his choice to compete. It’s also been hashed out extensively in various other threads that MtF athletes do not retain the same muscle mass and stamina as male athletes - the hormonal changes are more significant than a lot of people realize. That doesn’t mean the issue is a simple one (and it gets even more complex when one factors in intersex athletes) and there are things that the various sporting bodies need to consider if they have not already done so, but it would help if every time we have this fucking discussion it didn’t get bogged down in the misconception that MtF athletes compete just like men and FtM ones compete just like women (or, bizarrely conversely, like roided-up monsters because they’re taking normal levels of testosterone). ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/63 "2017-02-27T13:02:38Z")
Thank you to **Una Persson** and **Gyrate** for their thoughtful contributions. To this uninformed observer, it does seem that MtF athletes are the harder problem to solve (if the kid in the OP were simply allowed to compete with the gender he identifies as, there would never have been a news story about it). It is likely he would then be at a relative disadvantage, but it’s his choice if he wants to keep going and perhaps make up the difference through hard work in training. I don’t doubt the suggestion that MtF athletes do not retain all the physical advantages of their physical birth gender if they are transitioning, but if some advantage exists then it is very difficult to maintain a level playing field. Having said that, I can’t really see anyone being motivated to transition by the fact they might do a bit better in their sport. In other words, it’s a non-problem at the moment. If MtF athletes do have a slight advantage, well they deserve some compensation for the struggle they have gone through to get there. Kind of like how there’s often no medical reason why those with a disability should get priority queuing at amusement parks, but as someone fortunate enough to have no current disabilities I’m sure as hell not going to complain about it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/64 "2017-02-27T13:34:29Z")
There’s a factor here that I’m not sure is being considered, and that’s the fact we’re not talking about a person who has undergone a female puberty then transitioned, this is apparently a person who is (largely) _avoiding_ a female-hormone driven puberty and experiencing one with testosterone. It’s at puberty that the big male/female performance divide shows up. In other words, this wrestler may be at less of a disadvantage against cisboys than people are assuming due to how he’s going through puberty. His bone and muscle development, fat distribution, and so forth are closer to that of a cisboy due to medical intervention. In this particular case I’d prefer to see him competing against boys than girls. Which gets down to individual evaluation - society wants standardized rules and in circumstances like these (as for intersex individuals as well) what you really need is an individualized evaluation. Which takes time, money, and actual thought which seems an anathema to many. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/65 "2017-02-27T13:51:38Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I’m sorry it comes across as flaunting. I hate reposting the same lengthy citations every 30 days when someone on here suddenly thinks about this issue for the first time, refuses to do even a cursory Search on here or elsewhere, and decides that today is the day they take an SDMB stand against the Trans Menace. It’s one of the reasons **Eve** and several other transgender posters completely gave up on the SDMB. And it was a loss: **Eve** is a superb researcher and published author. Her biography of actress Theda Bara ([Vamp](https://www.amazon.com/Vamp-Rise-Fall-Theda-Bara/dp/1879511320/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488203096&sr=8-1&keywords=vamp+theda+bara), if anyone’s curious) is accessible in tone and scholarly in depth. And **Una** has a more compelling point: the SDMB makes noises about being rational and evidence-based, but when that evidence doesn’t support desired conclusions, the love for it wanes considerably. The evidence supports the conclusion that there is not a significant advantage to high school trans athletes competing against other athletes of their actual, as opposed to birth, gender. If you dispute this, _offer up your evidence_. And to dispel confusion, “It’s just common sense,” is not in any way evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/66 "2017-02-27T13:57:59Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > See, I think there’s a really valid debate here getting buried by all the hysterical shouts of “misgendering!” and “transphobia!”. > > **Una Persson** , I’m curious what you think is the appropriate approach to handling transgender athletes. Since in this case we’re talking about a FtM person, I think if he were actually allowed to compete against cis boys (which we’ve established is what he wanted but was not allowed to do), he’d be at a disadvantage. And if an MtF person competes against cis girls, they are at a natural advantage. That’s an anatomical problem that you really can’t get around in any completely fair way. What is the correct solution to that problem, in your view? I can’t speak for **Una** , but in my view the solutions are obvious. As you acknowledge, you see no problem in a trans male athlete competing. If he loses to his cisgender opponents, he loses. And **Una** has, here and in uncountable other threads, offered up evidence that there is no lasting advantage in the opposite circumstances. I can absolutely understand the skepticism, since this is counter-intuitive. But I suggest the way to refute this claim is to identify what flaws exist in the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/67 "2017-02-27T14:15:22Z")
The only way I can see him competing in good faith, under the current system, is to win for the cause that the rules should be changed to allow him to compete with the boys as is his wish. He should win, make a statement that he didn’t want to compete in the female category, but he wants to wrestle and to do so they say this is where he must do it, then give the win to the top competing female wrestler making the statement that she is the one that truly deserves the win. > [@Velocity](#): > > Isn’t this, physically strength-wise, not much different than if a cisgender female athlete used testosterone as a PED? Technical reason: The difference is that the testosterone is considered medically necessary which takes it out of the category of performance enhancing drugs. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/68 "2017-02-27T15:29:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And **Una** has, here and in uncountable other threads, offered up evidence that there is no lasting advantage in the opposite circumstances. I can absolutely understand the skepticism, since this is counter-intuitive. But I suggest the way to refute this claim is to identify what flaws exist in the evidence. Further to my previous post, I would like to apologise for not having read this evidence but also clarify that it is not my intention to argue against this position. > [@kanicbird](#): > > The only way I can see him competing in good faith, under the current system, is to win for the cause that the rules should be changed to allow him to compete with the boys as is his wish. He should win, make a statement that he didn’t want to compete in the female category, but he wants to wrestle and to do so they say this is where he must do it, then give the win to the top competing female wrestler making the statement that she is the one that truly deserves the win. It seems to me this is exactly what he has done, except perhaps the last part. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/69 "2017-02-27T15:46:59Z")
I wrestled in a state where the sport wasn’t popular enough to have a girl’s division. If you were a girl and wanted to wrestle, you just joined your school’s team. It was actually _highly_ desirable to snag a girl because it meant access to co-ed sports monies. There was a school across town that had a girl wrestler, and they had a school bus for away meets. A school bus! I remember being _quite_ relieved that there were no girls in my weight class (I saw some boys lose matches because they didn’t know what to do with their hands - HS wrestling is basically heavy petting without the kissing), but the empire did not fall because they were competing with us. Mack should be allowed to wrestle with the boys. He may have to work harder, but pretending that he’s being barred because it would be unfair to _him_ is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/70 "2017-02-27T15:58:55Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I’m sorry it comes across as flaunting. I hate reposting the same lengthy citations every 30 days when someone on here suddenly thinks about this issue for the first time, refuses to do even a cursory Search on here or elsewhere, and decides that today is the day they take an SDMB stand against the Trans Menace. It’s one of the reasons **Eve** and several other transgender posters completely gave up on the SDMB. Really, I only stick around because of you, **Una** ; you’re a formidable warrior for truth. Seriously, folks. Instead of denouncing the trans kid (who only wanted to pursue his sport as best he could), denounce the idiotic policies that put him in this untenable situation. I’d think we could all find common ground on that, if not for the haters whose sole motive for commenting is to bash trans people for existing. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/71 "2017-02-27T17:31:08Z")
Let’s not forget the case of Renee Richards. She was a tennis player who transitioned during her player career. She was an average male pro. Not one of the top players by any stretch. She sued to play on the women’s tour and the women pros were heavily against it arguing she would have a huge advantage. Well she didn’t. She was an average woman pro as well. She fit in just fine with the women’s pro players and would have been demolished if she was forced to continue playing on the men’s tours. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/72 "2017-02-27T17:58:20Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Let’s not forget the case of Renee Richards. She was a tennis player who transitioned during her player career. She was an average male pro. Not one of the top players by any stretch. She sued to play on the women’s tour and the women pros were heavily against it arguing she would have a huge advantage. Well she didn’t. She was an average woman pro as well. She fit in just fine with the women’s pro players and would have been demolished if she was forced to continue playing on the men’s tours. This is not correct. As a man Richards had played in college and in the navy but was never a professional. When she started playing professionally as a woman she was 43 years old and was ranked 20th in the world. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/73 "2017-02-27T18:16:57Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The science starts on Page 5, but the history in Page 1-4 provides a good context. Citations are on the final page, but authors are noted throughout the text. > > [http://transascity.org/cross-training-the-history-and-future-of-transgender-and-intersex-athletes-1/](http://transascity.org/cross-training-the-history-and-future-of-transgender-and-intersex-athletes-1/) This cite say “So what actually happens to transmen who take testosterone? Studies show that hemoglobin and hemocrit content increased in the first year, then leveled off – and most importantly, at the end of the year there was no significant difference between XY men and transmen. Testosterone increased muscle mass, but not to the same level as an XY male. Only for the highest-end subjects (ones who already had a large amount of muscle prior to transition) was an XY-level muscle mass achieved. Fat content decreased in many areas, but subcutaneous fat content was still greater than that of XY men” So it seems that the increased strength, decreased fat, and additional hemoglobin would be an advantage in wrestling. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/74 "2017-02-27T18:30:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s clearly morally wrong to say that no trans person can compete in sports at all. **You’ve just treated a minority differently for being a minority**. _[Laying trans persons’ participation in sports off to the side, with no intent to draw a parallel. Honest.]_ Why can’t accommodations be made for a quadriplegic teenager to be able to participate on, say, the track-and-field or baseball teams? Those accommodations would be made for the chess team, debate, Quiz Bowl, etc. Why not other competitions? _[/Laying trans persons’ participation in sports off to the side, with no intent to draw a parallel. Honest.]_ I just don’t know. Every situation can be taken on a case-by-case basis and absolute fairness can only be approached, never attained. Sometimes, circumstances leave people behind and it is unfair. Where’s that line between “_Life ain’t fair_” and “_There ought to be a law_”? I ask rhetorically. I feel that the wrestler in the OP should have been able to compete in the boys’ division, as he desired. At the same time, there will be other people in the future with even thornier knots … what can society do for them? How much fairness can we wring out of … well, out of fickle fate itself? ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/75 "2017-02-27T18:48:33Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is not correct. As a man Richards had played in college and in the navy but was never a professional. When she started playing professionally as a woman she was 43 years old and was ranked 20th in the world. Yes, you are correct. As a man he was a high level amateur, not a pro. My mistake. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/76 "2017-02-27T18:58:22Z")
OK so lets say everybody gets woke and Beggs can wrestle boys and (not guaranteed but likely) he is promptly no longer an elite level HS wrestler but a mid tier also ran but he gets a shot. It’s interesting to speculate what it would take to change the scenario ([per the linked article below](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/26/transgender-boy-wins-high-school-girls-wrestling-tournament.html)) as 95%s of Texas School Superintendents are electing to use birth certificates as the sole determinant of gender. If there was a powerful, talented quarterback who dressed, dated and lived as a girl would they deny him a place on the boys team if he could win? > [@](#): > > Despite criticism of the policy, University Interscholastic League executives don’t envision a change. > > “Ninety-five percent of the school superintendents in Texas voted for the rule as it was proposed, which was to use birth certificates,” UIL deputy director Jamey Harrison said. “So any rule can be reconsidered, but…given the overwhelming support for that rule, I don’t expect it to change anytime soon.” > > Beggs, who beat Chelsea Sanchez, 12-2, to win the state title, avoided talking about the transgender topic and instead tried to shine a light on the teammates who were also competing. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/77 "2017-02-27T19:02:09Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > My only motivation is to protect the integrity of sports. > > I don’t give a crap if this guy is transgender. That’s not the issue. > > Doping and the unfair advantage it creates is the issue. Point 1: It’s not doping. Your statement is factually incorrect. Doping has a legal definition which this does not fall under. Point 2: You have failed to give any citation that taking hormones to be at the same level as the other athletes is giving any sort of “unfair advantage.” Each of these issues is not even open to debate, they are facts on record. > [@](#): > > If you’re taking banned drugs then you don’t get to compete. Point 3: it’s not a banned drug for this use. This is also not open to debate, it’s a fact on record. > [@](#): > > Caitlyn Jenner delayed her transition to raise a family. It’s a choice. Raising a family meant more to her at that time. And that sample size of one means nothing. Can you address the factual errors in your post? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/78 "2017-02-27T19:17:05Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > See, I think there’s a really valid debate here getting buried by all the hysterical shouts of “misgendering!” and “transphobia!”. If you qualify my opinion dismissively as “hysterical,” what is my incentive for responding? Honestly, none. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/79 "2017-02-27T19:18:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t see how this is fair to the girls who don’t stand much chance with weight classes against someone who has the extra muscle mass. It’s hard to make fair rules that apply to such a small percentage. Another person who hasn’t read the thread nor understood the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/80 "2017-02-27T19:19:42Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The “shouts” aren’t “hysterical” if people are actually misgendering and being transphobic, you know. And there are a few spectacular examples in this thread. It’s not the people calling them out who are burying the debate. Thank you. > [@](#): > > IANUna but if he wants to wrestle boys, he should be able to wrestle boys. If he’s at a “natural disadvantage” (and as noted this is not a cut-and-dried as it may seem), I’m pretty sure he’s aware of it. Maybe he’ll have to work harder. So what? It’s still his choice to compete. I agree - and I’m certain he knows he’s at a disadvantage, and he likely would welcome that disadvantage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809.md?page=5)