# F\>M transgender HS wrestler forced to wrestle girls & dominates - Would he be competitive vs boys **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 26, 2017, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809 "2017-02-26T05:44:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/81 "2017-02-27T19:25:09Z")
> [@astro](#): > > OK so lets say everybody gets woke and Beggs can wrestle boys and (not guaranteed but likely) he is promptly no longer an elite level HS wrestler but a mid tier also ran but he gets a shot. > > It’s interesting to speculate what it would take to change the scenario ([per the linked article below](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/02/26/transgender-boy-wins-high-school-girls-wrestling-tournament.html)) as 95%s of Texas School Superintendents are electing to use birth certificates as the sole determinant of gender. If there was a powerful, talented quarterback who dressed, dated and lived as a girl would they deny him a place on the boys team if he could win? Is football restricted by sex? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/82 "2017-02-27T19:27:00Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This cite say “So what actually happens to transmen who take testosterone? Studies show that hemoglobin and hemocrit content increased in the first year, then leveled off – and most importantly, at the end of the year there was no significant difference between XY men and transmen. Testosterone increased muscle mass, but not to the same level as an XY male. Only for the highest-end subjects (ones who already had a large amount of muscle prior to transition) was an XY-level muscle mass achieved. Fat content decreased in many areas, but subcutaneous fat content was still greater than that of XY men” > So it seems that the increased strength, decreased fat, and additional hemoglobin would be an advantage in wrestling. Yes, having a genetic woman take testosterone will move them towards male competitiveness. But that has not been in dispute by anyone in this thread, including myself. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/83 "2017-02-27T19:40:06Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > If you’re taking banned drugs then you don’t get to compete. What about all the other boys, whose bodies naturally produce this “banned drug”? If Mack is taking just enough to bring his level up to that of the other boys, isn’t that leveling the playing field? Forcing him to compete with girls isn’t fair to either him or the girls. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/84 "2017-02-27T19:46:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …nothing to add to the thread: but just wanted to say that Una Persson is awesome: and one of the reasons I still hang out at the dope. Kia kaha Una. Keep fighting the fight. Thank you very much, Banquet Bear. > [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > Thank you to **Una Persson** and **Gyrate** for their thoughtful contributions. You are welcome. > [@Bricker](#): > > And **Una** has a more compelling point: the SDMB makes noises about being rational and evidence-based, but when that evidence doesn’t support desired conclusions, the love for it wanes considerably. > > The evidence supports the conclusion that there is not a significant advantage to high school trans athletes competing against other athletes of their actual, as opposed to birth, gender. If you dispute this, _offer up your evidence_. And to dispel confusion, “It’s just common sense,” is not in any way evidence. Correct - there isn’t proof by any means, but there is far, far from any “smoking gun” of evidence that M2F athletes enjoy a significant individual advantage, and even less than that evidence that we unbalance any sport. I provide some possible exampels on my website, with perhaps the closest possibility being the case of the veteran’s women’s epee fencer (I know people personally who fenced her, who have characterized her primary strength as being not strength nor size, but her skill - she simply has a lot of experience and kept active in the sport for decades). > [@Johanna](#): > > Really, I only stick around because of you, **Una** ; you’re a formidable warrior for truth. Thank you again, Johanna. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/85 "2017-02-27T20:15:28Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > What about all the other boys, whose bodies naturally produce this “banned drug”? If Mack is taking just enough to bring his level up to that of the other boys, isn’t that leveling the playing field? Forcing him to compete with girls isn’t fair to either him or the girls. Correct, and so many folks aren’t getting this. They’re hearing “testosterone == Incredible Hulk” without considering the fact that by that definition there are approximately 160 million Incredible Hulks walking around the US alone. ~ I’m hot on this issue because it directly impacts me and people I know and who I help treat. A very common reason I’m contacted by local schools is on the athletics issue, and each time I have the discussion it feels like starting from ground zero. I even have an intro “101” PowerPoint we use for talks our institute does. I can understand people thinking by default that “born boy = stronger, faster, better” but they just aren’t really going down the path to “but what impact does transition _really_ have? Is there proof that this is such a big deal? Where are the transgender women who are dominating girls/women’s sports? Where are the sports teams, events, or leagues being damaged by this? If this is such an issue, then how come in all the years since Richards’ court victory this hasn’t been a factor in the US?” I fear that some folks are well-meaning but just haven’t thought this through. But I fear others really just don’t like the fact that we exist, we share their spaces, and they wish that we would just go off back in our closets and never show our faces again. Sports is a very public venue with a lot of potential exposure, and some folks don’t want to see us mentioned - note folks who complain about “too much transgender coverage” in the news, but not about “too much” coverage of pretty much anything else. BTW, when we work with schools in the area and there are protests raised, do you know who raises them? Not the teachers, not the coaches, not the administrators (not at first), and not the students - it’s the parents. We’ve seen trans girls play for 2 years on a girls team without anyone raising an eyebrow, until one day a fundie parent hears that Suzy is transgender - and then they go on the warpath. And then suddenly _at that point_ then their kids have a problem, and the administrators have a problem, etc. The kids get it. The kids rise to the occasion for the most part and welcome their new sister/brother in sports. They can even joke about it amongst themselves. It’s no big deal. It’s the parents who knee-jerk to “protect their sweet fragile angel” from “boys trying to be girls.” Meanwhile, the kids are saying “OMFG, my parents are such jerks…no one cares about this!” Sure I can Google too and find students here and there speaking out; I’m referring to generalities in my area witnessed in my role with the counseling center I work for and other groups I work with professionally. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/86 "2017-02-27T20:42:04Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Yes, having a genetic woman take testosterone will move them towards male competitiveness. But that has not been in dispute by anyone in this thread, including myself. Then doesn’t that imply that people who are exposed to those hormones in puberty would be more muscular than those who don’t? Your cite says that taking female hormones degrades athletic perfomance but that it does not do it instantly. Under IOC rules the athlete has to be taking female hormones for two years before being allowed to compete against women. Since high school is only two years this would preclude high school sports for most people in that situation. The obvious solution would seem to be to allow anyone who wants to compete in boys sports to do so but only to allow girls and those who have completed a couple of years of hormones to compete with girls. However, this might constitute unequal treatment and so be illegal. I would imagine that the legality of this has yet to be tested. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/87 "2017-02-27T21:29:47Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Then doesn’t that imply that people who are exposed to those hormones in puberty would be more muscular than those who don’t? > \*\*Your cite says that taking female hormones degrades athletic perfomance but that it does not do it instantly. Under IOC rules the athlete has to be taking female hormones for two years before being allowed to compete against women. Since high school is only two years this would preclude high school sports for most people in that situation. \*\* > The obvious solution would seem to be to allow anyone who wants to compete in boys sports to do so but only to allow girls and those who have completed a couple of years of hormones to compete with girls. However, this might constitute unequal treatment and so be illegal. I would imagine that the legality of this has yet to be tested. Um… my high school was four years, with students starting at age 15, usually a couple years after puberty began. Beggs is a senior. I didn’t see in the article when he began the hormone therapy, but I’m willing to assume it’s at least two years. If there’s enough time for him to have passed the time limit, a transgender girl could have as well. And also bear in mind that if a MTF person never went through male puberty, then that muscle mass advantage literally never existed. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/88 "2017-02-27T23:23:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Is football restricted by sex? Not sure. Based on what I’ve read HS football is practically a religion in certain parts of Texas so it’s important to the local community. If a biological male decided to live as a woman but not physically transition as the strength loss would probably make them less competitive and he they loved football, what would the school do if he wanted to continue playing football and he was good at it? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/89 "2017-02-28T00:14:02Z")
Getting back to the actual question in the OP: > [@astro](#): > > Would he be competitive if allowed (as he wishes) to wrestle boys? I don’t know how well Beggs would do wrestling against boys, but I was able to find that there’s an FtM swimmer currently competing on the Harvard men’s team. He’s believed to be the first transman to compete in an NCAA Division I men’s sport. His name is Schuyler Bailar and he was interviewed on [60 Minutes](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-harvard-transgender-swimmer-schuyler-bailar/) last year. The full transcript is in the link, but here’s a bit about how he did in men’s competitions vs. his past performance as a woman: > [@60 Minutes](#): > > Schuyler Bailar: My goal to myself, because it’s not realistic for me to win anything right now, at all, is to try to beat at least one person in every race. […] Yesterday, I did get last in my second event. But-- but that’s the only one. And I’ve done eight races. So, seven out of eight of them I’ve gotten not last. > > […] > > Back at that Harvard-Columbia meet we went to, Schuyler achieved his goal of beating one swimmer and he beat his own previous best time by more than a second. But we did notice Schuyler during the women’s competition, cheering on his would-have-been teammates in his old event. And we were pretty sure he noticed that his old times would have won first place. I gather from the 60 Minutes piece that NCAA rules would have prevented the situation Beggs is in now, where a transman is on testosterone but has to compete as a woman. I apologize for quoting large blocks of text, but I’m dealing with some painful wrist problems and it’s easier for me than typing a summary: > [@60 Minutes](#): > > **Turns out the NCAA has a policy that allows for athletes who identify as male but were born female to compete on a women’s team as long as they don’t take male hormones.** So Stephanie Morawski said yes-- and Schuyler started making plans to live something of a double life: to be a man on Harvard’s campus the next fall, but a woman on Harvard’s swim team. Meanwhile Schuyler came out as transgender on Facebook, and posted on Instagram that he had so-called “top surgery” – a double mastectomy to remove the breasts he hadn’t wanted. The whole situation started to worry Coach Morawski. > > […] > > Stephanie Morawski: You can reinvent yourself [in college]. And I was struggling watching Schuyler, because he wanted to reinvent himself as Schuyler as a male, but was being held back by the athletic piece of it. > > She discussed her concerns with her friend and colleague, Harvard men’s swim coach Kevin Tyrrell. > > Stephanie Morawski: Kevin was-- just kinda looked at me and said, “I don’t-- I agree with you, I don’t think that you can have a dual identity. Why doesn’t he just swim for my team?” > > Lesley Stahl: Just like that. > > Stephanie Morawski: Just like that. > > \*\*Kevin Tyrrell: I mean, it made sense, right? If you’re happy being a male-- and that’s what you want to identify as, then it makes sense to be on the men’s swimming team. > > That would be allowed under NCAA rules – and he’d be permitted to take testosterone.\*\* (Bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/90 "2017-02-28T00:59:04Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > What about all the other boys, whose bodies naturally produce this “banned drug”? If Mack is taking just enough to bring his level up to that of the other boys, isn’t that leveling the playing field? Forcing him to compete with girls isn’t fair to either him or the girls. It’s an unfair advantage in the context of competing _against girls_, but it would be completely fair to take testosterone and compete were he allowed to compete against the other boys. The only way to solve the unfairness is to allow him to wrestle boys, which he wants anyway. I don’t think there’s a way to be fair otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/91 "2017-02-28T01:24:18Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Not sure. Based on what I’ve read HS football is practically a religion in certain parts of Texas so it’s important to the local community. If a biological male decided to live as a woman but not physically transition as the strength loss would probably make them less competitive and he they loved football, what would the school do if he wanted to continue playing football and he was good at it? My understanding is that if a sport doesn’t have an equivalent for the other gender/sex then the sport has to be open to both. Anyways, a girl is playing in Texas. [http://www.shape.com/fitness/latest-high-school-football-star-girl](http://www.shape.com/fitness/latest-high-school-football-star-girl) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/92 "2017-02-28T02:39:29Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Point 1: It’s not doping. Your statement is factually incorrect. Doping has a legal definition which this does not fall under. > > Point 2: You have failed to give any citation that taking hormones to be at the same level as the other athletes is giving any sort of “unfair advantage.” > > Each of these issues is not even open to debate, they are facts on record. > Point 3: it’s not a banned drug for this use. This is also not open to debate, it’s a fact on record. > And that sample size of one means nothing. > > Can you address the factual errors in your post? I pointed out earlier that imho the decision to allow a trans athlete to use banned drugs was a political one. The threat of lawsuits may have even been a factor. It’s extremely costly to defend cases in court. I have no animosity towards this young man. I wish him well in life. I simply feel anyone that wants to participate in athletics makes personal sacrifices. You maintain a nutrious diet. Get up at 5 AM to run before school. Go to the weight room. You have to maintain good grades to even qualify for a team sport. Many, many things are required to be an athlete. Why can’t a Trans person delay taking the drugs? They can still start the process. Change their name, dress differently and declare their intent. They can always continue their transition after finishing athletics. Most student athletes stop after high school. Or college of they are good enough to get on a college team. Others may consider this unreasonable. I don’t. If you want something bad enough then you work for it. You make choices in life. It’s part of becoming a mature adult. Asking someone to make a personal choice seems reasonable to me. Imho ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/93 "2017-02-28T02:42:38Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > It’s an unfair advantage in the context of competing _against girls_, but it would be completely fair to take testosterone and compete were he allowed to compete against the other boys. The only way to solve the unfairness is to allow him to wrestle boys, which he wants anyway. I don’t think there’s a way to be fair otherwise. True, but there is the real world possibility (and really more of a probability IMO) that if he was allowed to wrestle against same weight class cis-gendered boys I kind of doubt he’s going to be seriously competitive except at the lowest levels. If he gets his wish he drops from being a winner to being a loser in most of his matches. What’s that do to your desire to wrestle? But he will have had his shot. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/94 "2017-02-28T03:08:09Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I pointed out earlier that imho the decision to allow a trans athlete to use banned drugs was a political one. The threat of lawsuits may have even been a factor. It’s extremely costly to defend cases in court. Why do you keep missing the fact that I’ve been saying the IOC has set the standard more than 12 years ago on this issue? And it wasn’t due to any fear of lawsuits - it was in an effort to be fair after decades of witch hunts against intersex athletes which results in dehumanizing ALL female athletes by embarrassing “sex tests.” I kinda wrote a few thousand words on it in my link…with citations. > [@](#): > > Why can’t a Trans person delay taking the drugs? They can still start the process. Change their name, dress differently and declare their intent. They can always continue their transition after finishing athletics. Most student athletes stop after high school. Or college of they are good enough to get on a college team. In a nutshell this statement says you are missing a key fact of human development and transgender health care - in order to most effectively and best change our bodies, the younger that we do it, the better. In addition to that, there is a huge, enormous, sometimes life-threatening issue involved in that being on hormones provide an incredible anti-depressive effect and prevents unnecessary deaths. > [@](#): > > Others may consider this unreasonable. I don’t. If you want something bad enough then you work for it. You make choices in life. It’s part of becoming a mature adult. Another part of being a mature adult is recognizing when you’re talking from a position of ignorance. I’ve asked many repeatedly: DEMONSTRATE PROOF OF SERIOUS HARM TO ANY SPORT FROM THIS ISSUE. You cannot. No one can. If it existed it would be all over the news. Instead all you have is your gut feel and citations of sacrifices you felt necessary to make for yourself. Neither of which are rational bases for establishing a public policy. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/95 "2017-02-28T03:37:28Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I’m sorry it comes across as flaunting. I hate reposting the same lengthy citations every 30 days when someone on here suddenly thinks about this issue for the first time, refuses to do even a cursory Search on here or elsewhere, and decides that today is the day they take an SDMB stand against the Trans Menace. It’s one of the reasons **Eve** and several other transgender posters completely gave up on the SDMB. What you say makes sense. Maybe you could just link to a specific SDMB post in which you have all the relevant cites ready to go? And just keep using that same link, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/96 "2017-02-28T03:48:08Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Why can’t a Trans person delay taking the drugs? They can still start the process. Change their name, dress differently and declare their intent. They can always continue their transition after finishing athletics. Most student athletes stop after high school. Or college of they are good enough to get on a college team. > > Others may consider this unreasonable. I don’t. If you want something bad enough then you work for it. You make choices in life. It’s part of becoming a mature adult. > > Asking someone to make a personal choice seems reasonable to me. Imho As a generic statement, sure: asking someone to make a personal choice sounds reasonable. But the truth of that statement supposes that the choice is itself reasonable and based on some rational ground. Here, the delay of hormone therapy has long-term adverse effects. So I’d argue it’s not reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/97 "2017-02-28T04:04:07Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > .in any event, you and others are making the claim as a vehicle to discriminate I had written a complete answer to your post until I came to this line. I deleted it, I don’t owe any answer to someone who insults me. Bring evidences that my intent is discrimination rather than fairness. Thinking that a boy transitioning to girl is going to have an unfair advantage over other girls, even if you believe I’m wrong, and even if I’m factually wrong, isn’t the same thing as being a transphobic who want the like of you to disappear from view and hide in a closet. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/98 "2017-02-28T04:05:46Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I’ve asked many repeatedly: DEMONSTRATE PROOF OF SERIOUS HARM TO ANY SPORT FROM THIS ISSUE. You cannot. No one can. If it existed it would be all over the news. Instead all you have is your gut feel and citations of sacrifices you felt necessary to make for yourself. Neither of which are rational bases for establishing a public policy. The harm is very simple, even if not present today. Whatever rules the IOC or whatever athletic organization gives about this topic are bound to change. There has never been this amount of pressure on the issue and it’s only going to get worse. It will come to the point were “why isn’t my identifying as male/female enough? Why do you need X rule about hormones or Y rules about genitals?” will not get an answer that isn’t replied with “transphobic.” If “simply” identifying as a member of a sex in order to be considered that the real sex is one of the goals, AFAICT, of the trans community, why would you let sports off? Women in sports, and by that I mean biological women who identify as women, will suffer because it will bring the end of regulated female sports because they will get thrashed as the rules become less and less restrictive. Even if the “advantage” lasts only a couple of years it will be enough to discourage women as a group. That is the harm, it is evident, obvious. It may not be today but I for one cannot see the present rules being in place 20 years from now, and whatever replaces them is going to let more people in the “women” sports category. This is like the Oscar Pistorius issue where, aside from his natural athletic ability, the prosthetic legs were a help. At some point, those legs will make another “Pistorius” beat people with their natural legs. Is that fair? Nobody will cut their legs to win a medal (nobody will remove their penis to just win a medal) that’s obvious, but the technical regulation will always be unfair. I know there are regulations in sports, but they apply equally to all (size/weight of a discus, for example.) I, for one, don’t give a crap, though. Women sports are very bad compared to men. More trans people might make them more interesting for a while until sex is no longer a valid category in sports, as race or economic level used to be. PS: Whenever I say man or woman I mean biologically and self-identifying. Any other use gets a prefix, suffix, infix or adjectival/noun phrase. PPS: If that makes me a “misgendering transphobe” that’s the burden I will bear, as microscopic as it is or will be. PPPS: I really hope that insulting people actually works in furthering your goals, especially when it alienates people who give zero fucks or vey close to it. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/99 "2017-02-28T05:24:07Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The harm is very simple, even if not present today. But you are not showing any harm, nor any clear or present danger of harm, nor any evidence leading us down the path to such harm. That’s my point. Those making the assertion of harm need to back up their statements with more fact and science and demonstration from real-life events, if we are going to go so far as to limit access and accommodation to a minority. The bar needs to be pretty darned high to discriminate for this situation. > [@](#): > > PPPS: I really hope that insulting people actually works in furthering your goals, especially when it alienates people who give zero fucks or vey close to it. I am sorry if I have insulted you personally. If people give zero fucks or close to it, and if those same people come into trans\* threads and just shoot their mouth with misconceptions and lies, and resist pointedly even trying to have a fact-based discussion, then they are either idiots or trolls. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2017, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809/100 "2017-02-28T05:37:54Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I had written a complete answer to your post until I came to this line. I deleted it, I don’t owe any answer to someone who insults me. Um… > [@](#): > > Bring evidences that my intent is discrimination rather than fairness. The evidence is that you persistently failed to demonstrate any actual harm nor hard evidence of potential harm, nor a historical trend of harm, nor…anything else. The evidence is that you said, quoting directly “I don’t think he should be allowed to compete at all.” That is discrimination if you cannot present a factual reason and defend such a reason why he shouldn’t compete. > [@](#): > > Thinking that a boy transitioning to girl is going to have an unfair advantage over other girls, even if you believe I’m wrong, and even if I’m factually wrong, isn’t the same thing as being a transphobic who want the like of you to disappear from view and hide in a closet. I said vehicle to discriminate in my post to you. Not all who seek to discriminate are transphobic. Some are misguided, some haven’t thought on the subject hard enough, some are ignorant and seeking knowledge, and some are just ignorant. I did not call you a “transphobe” in any post to you. But rather than respond to my direct factual challenges, you are trying a wounded innocence message, telling me that you had some magnum opus of a post you refuse to post, and then turned around and try to shift the burden of proof. Why don’t you dig up your factual basis for pushing your viewpoint of discrimination against this boy and others like him? This is the second time I’ve had to ask. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-m-transgender-hs-wrestler-forced-to-wrestle-girls-dominates-would-he-be-competitive-vs-boys/780809.md?page=6)