# F#@% these union busters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2011, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896 "2011-02-28T08:41:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/421 "2011-03-05T23:07:25Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > America, land of towering irony. Just a few months back, we witnessed a spectacle of greed and incompetence previously unimaginable. Some of the best-paid “workers” in the world robbed us blind, pillaged pension funds, gutted the savings of millions of lesser paid folk, and looted the public like no one ever dreamed was possible. And we had to rescue their sorry asses, because otherwise the tower of shit they had constructed would fall over and crush us. > > Consequences? Rather a stern talking to. A firm “tsk tsk!” was delivered. Old folks who had looked forward to a well-earned, secure but modest retirement took jobs as Wal-Mart greeters, having no choice. Non-union jobs, of course, we wouldn’t want to encourage their avarice, now would we? > > And here we are. Talking about the dreadful greed and dishonesty of people who’s yearly salary wouldn’t cover their social betters bar tabs for the year. Surely, we mustn’t tax their asses off, we simply cannot squeeze money from them. Why, that would be class war! We gasp in horror at the very idea of class war, don’t we? > > What goddam fucking union do those assholes belong to? What vital services do they perform such that they earn a thousand times more than a fireman, a teacher, or a social worker? Must be something vital, something we cannot do without. > > Am I missing something here, or is everybody else? They thought repealing the Glass - Steagall was such a great idea, since were beyond that. Look what happened. Now there are some that want to do away with unions because they feel they have “outlived their usefulness” and that were beyond all that. What could possibly go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/422 "2011-03-05T23:12:57Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > If the miners want to pony up the investment capital to open their own mine and sell the coal on the open market, more power to them Fine, the owner can do all the work himself then as well…except theres that pesky thing called workers that he needs. What a conundrum. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/423 "2011-03-05T23:15:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And yet you complained about that quote I gave because it was just theory. > > The devil is in trying to game the system by “managing” it. When economists start telling us to implement protectionist measures, I’ll be right there with you. But now, the overwhelming consensus is that we shouldn’t do that. > > When biologists tell me how evolution works, I listen. When climate scientists tell me how climate change is happening, I listen. And when economists tell me how free trade works, I listen to them, too. You can choose to ignore them, but you can’t ignore the way the world actually works. When economists start making fortunes in the stock market better than non-econommists, I’ll start considering their theory as relevant to the shorter term. If you’re happy planning on an evolutionary scale, or even a climate time scale, more power to you. In the mean time, human beings have families to feed. I oppose failing to use human intelligence in managing systems to avoid certain bumps in the road on the way to “free market nirvana”, especially when the countries we compete with manage their economies to outcompete _us_. The market isn’t free. ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/424 "2011-03-06T00:14:45Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > Only as long as someone else is willing to work for less. If that’s the case, you aren’t worth as much as you think you are. > The union philosophy would be to decide the market is wrong, that the price of each doll should be $500, and that everyone trying to sell a doll should be bullied into agreeing with them (and paying them a montlhy fee). > > Value is what people are willing to pay for something. If someone can do your job for less, you aren’t worth what you think you are. Either do your job better, or accept a lower salary. In this Global “Free Market”, you would be correct in saying that someone is overpaid if say, a Chinese can build the same widget for a fraction of the cost than someone else can. But this “Free Market” is anything but free when its effects are only allowed to be felt by the common people and not the ones at the top. Looking at CEO pay for the US vs the rest of the world, we have: [http://www.cab.latech.edu/~mkroll/510\_papers/fall\_05/group6.pdf](http://www.cab.latech.edu/~mkroll/510_papers/fall_05/group6.pdf) Country Ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay Japan 11:1 Germany 12:1 France 15:1 Italy 20:1 Canada 20:1 South Africa 21:1 Britain 22:1 Hong Kong 41:1 Mexico 47:1 Venezuela 50:1 United States \*\*475:1 \*\* There are many CEO jobs in the states that can be done more cheaply by CEO’s overseas. You would not be opposed to instituting some sort of government run visa program to bring in potential CEO’s from overseas would you? It would help out the “Free Market” where companies would save vast sums of money. Of course, when you have the board of directors deciding how much to pay their CEO’s, their not going to cut their own throats by paying him less. The reality is that there are policies of control, and the unions provide some control for the little man, and rightly so. Otherwise, these “Free Market” forces should be allowed to effect everyones pay equally, since clearly, there are many qualified and talented people overseas that can do many CEO’s jobs here in the states at a fraction of the cost. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/425 "2011-03-06T07:51:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > “The literature analysing the economics of free trade is extremely rich with extensive work having been done on the theoretical and empirical effects. Though it creates winners and losers, the broad consensus among members of the economics profession in the U.S. is that free trade is a large and unambiguous net gain for society.” > > Emphasis added. > > I’ve quoted that from the wikipedia page on free trade a number of times here. It is sourced, although you have to sign up to be able to view it. Now, if you don’t like the comparison to ID, then I’ll happily offer you climate change denial as an alternative. Well it was a long time ago, but I was taught economics at a pretty respectable school, and had multiple professors and was set multiple reading assignments by people who believed that while free trade, in general, provided a large and unambiguous gain for society, there were certain situations where it did not. And those situations included theories of second best (playing by the rules might not be the best thing when other people aren’t) and limited protectionism for sunset, sunrise, and strategic industries. None of those theories go against the idea that your wiki quote supposes. Nor do they go against the idea I put forward initially. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/426 "2011-03-06T17:17:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The time frame is irrelevant, the “society” is the US, and even if it were a good thing to do (which it isn’t) no government is nimble enough to micromanage trade at the level you are suggesting. That’s just nonsense. > If you have a cite that there is a consensus among Economists on that point, bring it. This is something that there simply isn’t significant disagreement among people who actually study this for a living. > > Creationists and climate change deniers are routinely scoffed at on this MB. There is no significant difference between that and the ignorance shown by protectionists when it comes to free trade. I generally consider you a moderate on most issues but on the free trade issue you are a bit of a idealogue. We don’t have free trade, we never have had free trade and until we have one world government we will never have free trade. So why does it make sense to be the only country in the world that opens its borders to free trade with mercantalists? Why can’t we impose a carbon tax to tax imports for any excessive carbon emitted in the production of the product (we are approaching a point in time when that tax would be imposed by China on us and not the other way around). Why can’t we protect nascent industries? Why can’t we use protectionism to slow down the flood of jobs being exported overseas to prevent destructive dislocation, even if it as the cost of a little bit of growth? In the end we can’t stop the shift of low skill labor overseas but we can slow it enough so that people here can adapt. Instead we have seen preciptious changes in half a generation that would have taken decades if not centuries in the past. We are Americans and we can adapt quickly to anything but the rate of change has been faster than our ability to adapt. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/427 "2011-03-06T17:20:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Just keep immigration to a point where it doesn’t cause an over-supply of workers, and the rest will take care of itself. Particularly if you keep out illegals, who drive down wages. A particular job is worth $X. An over-supply of workers drives down X to some artificial value. When there isn’t an oversupply, workers have more power. They can demand higher wages. Is there someone who is arguing for indiscriminately letting illegal aliens in. I thought the argument usually centered around how much we were willing to engage in racism and profiling to combat illegal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/428 "2011-03-06T21:53:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Is there someone who is arguing for indiscriminately letting illegal aliens in. I thought the argument usually centered around how much we were willing to engage in racism and profiling to combat illegal immigration. Yes. There are people on these boards who have argued for open borders. And you’re almost right about what “usually” transpires. One side argues for controlling our border and keeping illegal numbers to a minimum (including putting employers in jail) and the other side cries “RACISM!!!”. ---
**Author:** ![CheeseDonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@CheeseDonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheeseDonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/429 "2011-03-06T22:09:29Z")
A local 9/11 dispatcher made $133,000 last year, while receiving as many as 50 days off excluding weekends. Unions don’t need to be gotten rid of; they need to be corralled. I don’t understand why union members believe they have the right to tell the taxpayer that the taxpayer needs to pay most of their exorbitant healthcare and benefit costs. They always complain about greedy corporations, yet many of their own are making hundreds of thousands of dollars each year. While people are continually living in poverty and unemployment is still an issue, so many union members demand more, more, more. I am not pro union, I am not anti union. I am pro moderation, and unions - especially public unions - have been excessive for far too long. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/430 "2011-03-06T22:30:39Z")
One of our local 9/11 dispatcher only made $21,000 last year, while having no holidays, and having to endure daily beatings from his boss. My unsubstantiated anecdote beats your unsubstantiated anecdote. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/431 "2011-03-06T22:41:30Z")
> [@CheeseDonkey](#): > > A local 9/11 dispatcher made $133,000 last year, while receiving as many as 50 days off excluding weekends. > > Unions don’t need to be gotten rid of; they need to be corralled. I don’t understand why union members believe they have the right to tell the taxpayer that the taxpayer needs to pay most of their exorbitant healthcare and benefit costs. They always complain about greedy corporations, yet many of their own are making hundreds of thousands of dollars each year. While people are continually living in poverty and unemployment is still an issue, so many union members demand more, more, more. > > I am not pro union, I am not anti union. I am pro moderation, and unions - especially public unions - have been excessive for far too long. Then maybe you should tell the management to stop accepting the union contract proposals when they’re outlandish and instead fire the union. If it’s truly that exorbitant, I GUARANTEE you you’ll find a non-union worker for less. What actually happens is typically that the union actually does represent pretty close to the actual value of the job, so management can’t find scabs–and decides to try to figure out how to get out of their negotiated contracts instead. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/432 "2011-03-06T22:48:08Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > One of our local 9/11 dispatcher only made $21,000 last year, while having no holidays, and having to endure daily beatings from his boss. > > My unsubstantiated anecdote beats your unsubstantiated anecdote. And according to my Google ads, an unemployed mum makes £6,397 a month working online. Yay! This is fun. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/433 "2011-03-07T00:23:49Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > One of our local 9/11 dispatcher only made $21,000 last year, while having no holidays, and having to endure daily beatings from his boss. > > My unsubstantiated anecdote beats your unsubstantiated anecdote. I heard about a 911 operator here in Nevada who had to pay $48,000 to his employer just to be able to work last year, and he had to beat himself twice a day, with no holidays or time off: he worked 24/7 all year long while paying for the privilege. Prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![CheeseDonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@CheeseDonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheeseDonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/434 "2011-03-07T01:36:11Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > One of our local 9/11 dispatcher only made $21,000 last year, while having no holidays, and having to endure daily beatings from his boss. > > My unsubstantiated anecdote beats your unsubstantiated anecdote. Mine was written up in the newspaper. > [@](#): > > A 911 dispatcher [James Felice] was the highest-paid city government employee again last year… > > That allowed James Felice to edge out former Deputy Mayor Patty Malgieri, who resigned Nov. 2 and was paid $21,000 for unused vacation time. > > Felice ended the year with $133,200 in total wages, according to records obtained by the Democrat and Chronicle under the Freedom of Information Law. Malgieri received $132,611. [http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110306/NEWS01/103060354/City-payroll-cuts-seem-likely-50M-deficit-nears?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home](http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110306/NEWS01/103060354/City-payroll-cuts-seem-likely-50M-deficit-nears?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CHome) ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/435 "2011-03-07T01:52:11Z")
Wow, that dispatcher worked double shifts all year and only took one day off a week for a whole year to earn that. What a lazy, money grubbing slacker! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/436 "2011-03-07T01:58:01Z")
> [@CheeseDonkey](#): > > Mine was written up in the newspaper. > > [http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110306/NEWS01/103060354/City-payroll-cuts-seem-likely-50M-deficit-nears?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home](http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110306/NEWS01/103060354/City-payroll-cuts-seem-likely-50M-deficit-nears?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CHome) I knew something was missing, the salary quoted included overtime, vacation and sick time not used and benefits. In other words, workers that indeed worked their ass off. Since cutting benefits and many other concessions are being made the state workers in Wisconsin for example, this once again does not show a need to bust unions, but to limit the benefits. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/437 "2011-03-07T02:08:29Z")
> **[Dispatcher Emergency Salaries by education, experience, location and more](https://www1.salary.com/Dispatcher-Emergency-Salary.html)** > > Dispatcher Emergency salaries, benefits packages, yearly bonuses, job descriptions, statistics and available positions. Dispatchers across America make about 30 K. There is a town in California that the mayor made 800 thou. That indicates that all mayors are overpaid. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/438 "2011-03-07T02:19:32Z")
> [@CheeseDonkey](#): > > Mine was written up in the newspaper. > > [http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110306/NEWS01/103060354/City-payroll-cuts-seem-likely-50M-deficit-nears?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home](http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110306/NEWS01/103060354/City-payroll-cuts-seem-likely-50M-deficit-nears?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CHome) Christ Almighty, you’d have to pay me a hell of a lot more than 133k to work 4200+ hours in a year. ---
**Author:** ![bugme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@bugme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bugme)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/439 "2011-03-07T02:23:57Z")
Gotta love liberals. “We support freedom of speech and will defend your right to say it.” But when someone doesn’t fall lock step in line with your thinking, you jump all over them and attack them. CheeseDonkey, fight the good fight. Liberals just want to destroy America and turn it into their version of a socialist utopia. They hate free speech. They only want to hear what sounds good to them. When they don’t, they jump all over those that oppose them, trying to silence them with vague insults, incessant snideness and over the top sarcasm. The people here on this site, they are what are known as coffee-shop liberals. They are the self-diagnosed “intellectuals” of the world, those that think that because they went to a $40,000-a-year school (that mom and dad paid for) and because they were filled-in on all the ills of the world by an overpaid anthropology professor, they are better than everyone else. They are those who are walking around with their heads held high, wafting in the smell of their rose-flavored farts. Enjoy them. They are fun to laugh at. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/440 "2011-03-07T02:44:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s what I’ve been trying to convince you of in all those immigration threads. Sounds like something finally sank in. 😉 Desperate people will do what they have to do to support their families. If they have to step over the borders to get a job they will. NAFTA was presented as a way to elevate labor wages in Mexico. It has not. It was really just a way to cut labor costs. That end has been achieved. The borders are way too long to close. You have to actually do what we said we were going to do. Make it so Mexican worker can make a living at home. They do not want to leave their families to take an American job. But they have to do what is necessary to survive. That means they will cross the borders again and again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896.md?page=23)