# F#@% these union busters **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 28, 2011, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896 "2011-02-28T08:41:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/121 "2011-03-01T17:38:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > They lack your expertise, **John.** Many of us lesser minds suffer that way, we fail to understand the essential principles of the Free Market. Which, by some metaphysical miracle, doesn’t actually exist but nonetheless has essential principles which must be understood and obeyed. > > What this does to the whole “existence precedes essence” question is too much for a country boy like me, I’ll just defer to your judgement on that one. With all due awe. Thank-you. I’m here to help wherever I can! ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/122 "2011-03-01T17:40:56Z")
When I was in my twenties, I organized a union at my workplace. It seemed like a good idea at the time. (Our certification was overturned because of a totally bogus community-of-interest claim, and everyone got the sack.) My feelings about unions (largely influenced by Woody Guthrie and Utah Phillips, etc.) have largely reversed. Collective bargaining can still make sense when workers are completely interchangeable and easily replaceable, but I generally don’t want to be in that situation. My last union job (and my current non-union job) really changed my perception. The job was no great shakes – just order assembly in a warehouse. (Designer clothes.) A slightly different position opened up- basically the exact same thing, except exclusively for Hudson’s Bay orders – slightly different inventory in a separate area, and large volume orders with a bit more time pressure. Nobody wanted to do it, at all, at all. (More work!) I was mainly looking for something (anything) to make my resume a little more attractive for the next gig, so I volunteered – but I talked my into a fifty cent (wow!) raise as an incentive. Of course, that’s a grievance. Stop work, meetings to be had. “Not fair! He’s doing the same work and earning more than me.” The same work now, but of course it wasn’t the same work when the manager had to do it himself for a week because it was obviously _more_ work, which is why nobody was in a hurry to do it. I eventually got to keep the controversial $40 a month extra I earned for stepping up to bust my hump for 160 hours, but I had to fight for it. This contrasts starkly with my current job, where I was hired as a file clerk, but took every opportunity to take more responsibility and point out how I might improve on current methods. Four years on, my salary has nearly doubled. I prefer not to be Harrison Bergeron’d, if I can avoid it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/123 "2011-03-01T17:49:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Thank-you. I’m here to help wherever I can! Excellent! When do you plan on starting? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/124 "2011-03-01T17:52:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Excellent! When do you plan on starting? You need to pay me a living wage first. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/125 "2011-03-01T18:15:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You need to pay me a living wage first. I asked the Free Market, and it said “No.” Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/126 "2011-03-01T18:16:18Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I asked the Free Market, and it said “No.” > > Sorry. I hate it when that happens!! ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/127 "2011-03-01T18:17:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You need to pay me a living wage first. I’m all for the Living Wage for myself, if I get to pick the neighborhood the standards are set by 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/128 "2011-03-01T19:18:24Z")
[The true cause of the budget crisis.](http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=us_uncut_calls_out_corporate_tax_deadbeats) > [@](#): > > Some of the worst corporate offenders are Hewlett-Packard, Verizon, Chevron, Ford, ExxonMobil, and Bank of America. The biggest dodger is General Electric (GE), which, during a time of national economic crisis, actually made money on its tax filing in 2010. Though the company generated $10.3 billion in pretax income, it recorded $1.1 billion in tax benefits. Forbes calls this G.E.'s “uncanny ability to lose lots of money in the US and make lots of money overseas, where tax rates are lower.” Such activity is also known as tax dodging, but publications like Forbes prefer to avoid such shrill language. > > Conservatives frequently cite the fact that America’s corporate tax rate is 35 percent, which is higher than the average of other industrial countries, but that doesn’t take into account these kinds of tax-evading practices.\*\* In fact, 115 companies on the S&P 500 pay less than 20 percent in taxes, and that doesn’t take into account the 37 companies, such as Citigroup and American International Group (AIG), that receive more in credits than they ultimately pay out (companies that pay less than 5 percent in taxes include Boeing and Amazon).\*\* > > In 2010, if you made between $34,001 and $82,400, your marginal tax rate was 25 percent. … You even paid more if you were in either of the next two lowest income brackets. For singles earning between $0 and $8,375, the marginal tax rate is 10 percent – a positively patriotic sum considering that income won’t keep an individual above the poverty line and yet would cause any Fortune 500 CEO to experience cardiac arrest. Total corporate profits for 2009 were $1.258 trillion, and total taxes, state and federal, were $254 billion, a brutal 20%. While the average tax burden for households is over $20,000 and average incomes only around $40,000. Even with all the attendant issues caused by using averages, citizens are getting bit far more than the average corporation. And as to who this economy is hurting, compare the 3rd quarter figures for 2009 and 2010. ([Table](http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/Current/) F.7 Distribution of National Income) Wages increased 2.8%. Corporate profits increased 27.8% The complaint that public sector compensation is the cause, or even a major factor is unfounded. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/129 "2011-03-01T19:20:00Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I asked the Free Market, and it said “No.” > > Sorry. Is that something like a Magic 8 Ball? ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/130 "2011-03-01T19:42:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sure. Why not? There is a legally mandated minimum wage, but except in a few instances there is no legally mandated “living wage”. If you want companies to always pay a living wage for every job, you’ll need to convince the majority of voters that that makes good economic sense, and then get them to vote for representatives who support that action. Good luck. Congresscritters are notoriously bad at economics, but not that bad. At least most of them aren’t. Progressives would love a living wage, but we are too busy fighting to keep the minimum wage. [GOP lawmaker Crowell tries to limit Missouri minimum wage.](http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_12f65a1a-6add-5a06-bad1-004cf89bda90.html) He is trying to overturn an initiative that was approved by over 70% of the voters that allowed the state’s minimum to rise above the federal limit. I am not sure why we even bother with initiatives in this state. [The legislature loves to ignore them.](http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Analysis-Mo-lawmakers-seek-to-undo-initiatives-117012458.html) I love the complaints about such measures affecting ‘job creation’ or distorting the labor market. I might buy it if not for the fact that these same companies have no problem paying management far more than the living wage and oppose any limits on the high end. Somehow limiting pay to less than $1 million a year destroys their incentive to do good work. Considering what those ‘best and brightest’ did over the last decade, I’ll take my chances with those who would be willing to work for less. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/131 "2011-03-01T20:00:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > For me, that just points to the moral failing of unions. Let’s say there are no unions. I go knock on some guy’s door and ask for a job. I share me experience and we arrive on a mutually agreeable price. The world is fine. If we do not agree on a price, neither of us is forced into an arrangement that we are not happy with. In your example, you want the union to “own” all the labor of a particular stripe, so that the employer is essentially forced to hire a union person and to accept a financial arrangement that he believes unfair. His only option at that point is to not have that job done. And in a world where I can trust business to not collude itself, we won’t need unions any more. I, however, do not trust business in general to give me a fair deal when they can screw me–a lesson I learned at my daddy’s knee, mind you, watching him run his general store and fighting every step of the way to get treated fairly by suppliers. So as long as the possibility exists for companies in the same field and geographic area to collude to drive wages down, I see no reason to not have unionization available to push wages up–management is, after all, just as free to not accept union wages. I think you’ll find that in places where unions are truly unreasonable, people will quit the union and go to work if union unreasonableness is what’s really causing wage negotiations to stall. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/132 "2011-03-01T20:04:59Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > This contrasts starkly with my current job, where I was hired as a file clerk, but took every opportunity to take more responsibility and point out how I might improve on current methods. Four years on, my salary has nearly doubled. I prefer not to be Harrison Bergeron’d, if I can avoid it. And here you hit on the problem of unions that are too overzealous–throwing the merit pay for meritorious work baby out with the treat everyone fairly bathwater. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/133 "2011-03-01T20:13:56Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Is that something like a Magic 8 Ball? My sources say no. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/134 "2011-03-01T20:16:57Z")
I love the idea of a mutually agreed to wage. In the real world, the owner can pay you what he wants Without a minimum wage or absent a union, your input is weak. He has the power. If you don’t like it, he will hire someone else who will work for less. As long as they can keep unemployment high, you are powerless. In case you have not noticed offshoring has created an educated and experience, desperate work force. It was not an accident. Wages will drop in America to meet the wages in 3rd world countries. We are going there rapidly. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/135 "2011-03-01T20:37:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > They lack your expertise, **John.** Many of us lesser minds suffer that way, we fail to understand the essential principles of the Free Market. Which, by some metaphysical miracle, doesn’t actually exist but nonetheless has essential principles which must be understood and obeyed. > > What this does to the whole “existence precedes essence” question is too much for a country boy like me, I’ll just defer to your judgement on that one. With all due awe. What about your principles of morality and justice, which don’t exist but must be obeyed? The difference between the free market and your ideas of morality and justice is nothing more than the difference between society choosing its own way and conforming to your ideas of how it should be. I like freedom and choice, and you don’t–you just want to get your way, like an ignorant petulent child. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/136 "2011-03-01T21:35:12Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What about your principles of morality and justice, which don’t exist but must be obeyed? > > The difference between the free market and your ideas of morality and justice is nothing more than the difference between society choosing its own way and conforming to your ideas of how it should be. I like freedom and choice, and you don’t–you just want to get your way, like an ignorant petulent child. Choices like using child labor ?Does that hit your radar for morality or have you sold that value too? Unsafe working conditions are a union focus point. Does that have moral ramifications of is it just Business? You can not divorce morality from the relationship, unless you have none. then it makes sense for you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/137 "2011-03-01T21:39:49Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > Progressives would love a living wage, but we are too busy fighting to keep the minimum wage. > > [GOP lawmaker Crowell tries to limit Missouri minimum wage.](http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_12f65a1a-6add-5a06-bad1-004cf89bda90.html) > > He is trying to overturn an initiative that was approved by over 70% of the voters that allowed the state’s minimum to rise above the federal limit. > > I am not sure why we even bother with initiatives in this state. [The legislature loves to ignore them.](http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Analysis-Mo-lawmakers-seek-to-undo-initiatives-117012458.html) > I love the complaints about such measures affecting ‘job creation’ or distorting the labor market. I might buy it if not for the fact that these same companies have no problem paying management far more than the living wage and oppose any limits on the high end. > > Somehow limiting pay to less than $1 million a year destroys their incentive to do good work. Considering what those ‘best and brightest’ did over the last decade, I’ll take my chances with those who would be willing to work for less. I’m not really taking a position on putting an upper limit on pay based on economics. I’m not sure what the result would be, although I would certainly object to it on principles of, well… living in a free society? Let’s just say that has nothing to do with the (bad) economics of mandating a living wage because it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/138 "2011-03-01T21:56:43Z")
But what does it say about us as a people, **John**? What do we value, what values do we live by? I think that valuing a businessman a thousand times above a firefighter or a teacher is an absurdity. We don’t honor virtue and service, we honor grasping greed. We’d like to change that, **John**. We could use your help, if you’ve nothing better to do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/139 "2011-03-01T22:21:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > But what does it say about us as a people, **John**? What do we value, what values do we live by? I think that valuing a businessman a thousand times above a firefighter or a teacher is an absurdity. We don’t honor virtue and service, we honor grasping greed. Well, that’s a very different kind of argument. Now you’re talking about what people actually value as opposed to having a system that allows them to express that value freely. > [@](#): > > We’d like to change that, **John**. We could use your help, if you’ve nothing better to do. “Businessman” is a very broad term. I can think of quite a few of those whom I value more than your average teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896/140 "2011-03-01T22:46:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s a very different kind of argument. Now you’re talking about what people actually value as opposed to having a system that allows them to express that value freely. > > “Businessman” is a very broad term. I can think of quite a few of those whom I value more than your average teacher. Just out of curiosity… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/f-these-union-busters/572896.md?page=8)