# Fables comic book series (SPOILERS) - discussion on the background **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 19, 2007, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351 "2007-07-19T04:07:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/1 "2007-07-19T04:07:43Z")
A discussion about the comic book series _[Fables](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fables_%28Vertigo%29)_ by Bill Willingham. For those who aren’t familiar with it, the basic premise is that various folklore characters like Snow White, the Big Bad Wolf, and Prince Charming are actual people living in New York City. While I recommend the series, if you aren’t already familiar with it, you’re going to miss the points being discussed here because I’m wondering about the background of the series. Has Willingham stated exactly how it all works out? Did characters like Snow White have an independent existence before they were written about as folklore or were they created by the folklore itself? If they are already in existence, what are they like before being written about? If they are created, do they just spontaneously appear? Or is it a case of them already being powerful characters who are just discovered by mundane writers? What’s the connection between Earth and the Homelands? Do characters arise on Earth or in the Homelands? Is a connection with Earth required for their ongoing existence? How long ago was the conquest of the Homelands? It’s been shown that popular belief in a character can give them increased power (Goldilocks and Snow White both survived otherwise mortal injuries because they are well known and Jack’s films made him stronger). But some popular characters like Robin Hood and Aslan are supposedly dead. But they are still popular characters - why haven’t they revived? Or have they? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/2 "2007-07-19T04:16:07Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] But they are still popular characters - why haven’t they revived? Or have they? [/QUOTE] The Three Little Pigs were killed, but they were immediately replaced. Ditto Baby Bear. It seems that popularity among the mundies isn’t a gurantee of true immortality. The original Robin Hood may have been killed, but some other noble named Robin somewhere has probably taken up banditry in response to the Adversary’s tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/3 "2007-07-19T04:34:04Z")
People who ask questions about comics should remember that at least [del]60%[/del] [del]70%[/del] [del]80%[/del] 90% of all the entries on Wikipedia are comics related. Here’s the one on [Fables](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fables_%28Vertigo%29). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/4 "2007-07-19T04:42:58Z")
Ummm…Exapno, I linked to that article in the OP so I’m obviously aware of it…I’m also aware it didn’t address any of the issues I raised. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/5 "2007-07-19T04:43:19Z")
We don’t know the answers to many of these questions. Willingham has been coy, and some evidence from the comics has been contradictory. > [@](#): > > It’s been shown that popular belief in a character can give them increased power That has been _stated,_ but we don’t know for certain it’s the case. Frau Totenkinder has said she doesn’t believe it, and she’s one of the most powerful Fables on Earth despite most Mundys not even knowing her by name. > [@](#): > > Did characters like Snow White have an independent existence before they were written about as folklore or were they created by the folklore itself? If they are already in existence, what are they like before being written about? If they are created, do they just spontaneously appear? This may be a half-and-half sort of thing. Is Frankenstein’s Monster a Fable? Maybe, but he was created in this world, not one of the homelands. And we’ve met two Alices and two sets of Tortoises and Hares (one each at Fabletown or the Farm, and at Golden Boughs Retirement Village (I assume you’re also reading _Jack of Fables_ and not just the original book)). > [@](#): > > How long ago was the conquest of the Homelands? Centuries and centuries. Presumably Fabletown was founded sometime after Europeans established a presence on Manhattan Island, so the Homelands of most of the Western fables were conquered not later than 1624. The conquest of the Arab fable homelands, of course, is ongoing. > [@](#): > > But some popular characters like Robin Hood and Aslan are supposedly dead. But they are still popular characters - why haven’t they revived? Or have they? We’ll have to wait and see. Ther may well be many “right” answers to those questions. I’m sure you noticed that “Wicked John” at Golden Boughs is an alternate version of Jack himself. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/6 "2007-07-19T05:04:26Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Ummm…Exapno, I linked to that article in the OP so I’m obviously aware of it…I’m also aware it didn’t address any of the issues I raised. [/QUOTE] Sorry, for some reason my eye didn’t catch that was a link. ---
**Author:** ![lawoot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/35a633/32.png) [@lawoot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawoot)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/7 "2007-07-19T05:30:17Z")
[QUOTE=Fiver] Centuries and centuries. Presumably Fabletown was founded sometime after Europeans established a presence on Manhattan Island, so the Homelands of most of the Western fables were conquered not later than 1624. [/QUOTE] I think that Fabletown was formed while NYC was still New Amsterdam. ---
**Author:** ![Elysium](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@Elysium](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elysium)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/8 "2007-07-19T12:36:40Z")
I’ve wondered at a lot of these questions. I’m also interested in what logic lies behind which worlds connect to each other and which connect to the mundy worlds. It’s definitely been implied that popularity among mundies relates to one’s power, but as has been said Frau Totenkinder belies this. Her clash with Baba Yaga in particular shows how powerful she remains, they are similar in power yet Totenkinder appears to have the upper hand (for now). The recent revelation about the forsworn knight adds another element. If a fable chooses to live in obscurity can they retain their influence? Lance’s legend is one of the most well known western myths, what power does he have now that he is sworn to the frog prince? I can’t wait for this story arc to play out, even if it means less Bigby than usual. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/9 "2007-07-19T13:20:47Z")
**Little Nemo** , you may find the website [Fabletown](http://www.fabletown.com/forum/), which is like a Straight Dope for all things Fables. Among other things, there’s a FAQ which is updated after each new issue of _Fables_ or _Jack of Fables_ comes out. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/10 "2007-07-19T19:59:06Z")
[QUOTE=Elysium] I’ve wondered at a lot of these questions. I’m also interested in what logic lies behind which worlds connect to each other and which connect to the mundy worlds. It’s definitely been implied that popularity among mundies relates to one’s power, but as has been said Frau Totenkinder belies this. Her clash with Baba Yaga in particular shows how powerful she remains, they are similar in power yet Totenkinder appears to have the upper hand (for now). [/QUOTE] Frau Totenkinder doesn’t nessasary contradict the idea that a Fable gains more power with Mundy belief. I think it had been stated that she has been coming by her power through… other means. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/11 "2007-07-19T20:13:24Z")
I think Fable-power does certainly seem to bestow some superiority, but that doesn’t mean it’s the only kind. Baba Yaga might have more power from stories (and i’m not sure that’s so), but Frau Totenkinder has more magical power. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/12 "2007-07-19T20:26:03Z")
[QUOTE=Elysium] I’m also interested in what logic lies behind which worlds connect to each other and which connect to the mundy worlds. It’s definitely been implied that popularity among mundies relates to one’s power, but as has been said Frau Totenkinder belies this. [/QUOTE] However…it may not be the name as much as how many stories you were in and how well known _they_ were. In 1001 Nights of Snowfall, the seperate Fables hardback, one of the stories deals with Frau Totenkinder and how she was THE totemic Wicked Witch. Beauty and the Beast witch = Frau Totenkinder. Rapunzel witch = Frau Totenkinder. Frog Prince witch = Frau Totenkinder. FT may not buy the theory herself, but circumstantially her stories have farrrrr wider distribution than Baba Yaga’s, at least in the West. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/13 "2007-07-19T21:53:14Z")
[ol] [li]Do the Gods of Myth connect with the Fables?[/li][li]Does _Fables_ take place in the DC Universe?[/li][li]Hi, **Opal**.[/li][li]Are the Fables restricted to living societies? After all, we have some Ancient Egyptian Fables, translated.[/li][li]Is the Fable-Making process ongoing? New Fables, not replacements?[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/14 "2007-07-19T22:13:42Z")
[li]Are the Fables restricted to living societies? After all, we have some Ancient Egyptian Fables, translated.[/li][li]Is the Fable-Making process ongoing? New Fables, not replacements?[/li][/list] [/QUOTE] 1. We don’t know; the only god-like beings we’ve met so far are the North Wind (Bigby’s father), the Winter Queen, and Santa Claus. 2. I don’t think it takes place either in the DC universe or in the “standard” Vertigo universe (which is technically within the DC universe, but you never see super-heroes in _Hellblazer_ or _Lucifer,_ for example). 3. We don’t know yet. But it would seem outside the spirit of the series for Willingham to make up a new character and pretend s/he’s from some lost culture. 4. Still don’t know this. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/15 "2007-07-19T22:14:17Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] [list=1] [li]Do the Gods of Myth connect with the Fables?[/li][/quote] Bill Willingham has said he doesn’t want to use gods, on the grounds that they’re too powerful and story-breaking. So if they do, they won’t get involved. [QUOTE] [li]Does _Fables_ take place in the DC Universe?[/li][/QUOTE] Nope. [QUOTE] [li]Are the Fables restricted to living societies? After all, we have some Ancient Egyptian Fables, translated.[/li][/QUOTE] It seems to be a matter of stories. As long as the stories continue, the Fables themselves will. So it’s probably harder if that society didn’t survive to pass on their stories, but not impossible. [QUOTE] [li]Is the Fable-Making process ongoing? New Fables, not replacements?[/li][/QUOTE] No idea. But there are more “recent” Fables, as in the American-based ones. Problem is, Fables seem to have existed for far longer than their actual stories have existed over here. So it’s possible that there have been what we’d consider “modern” Fables for a while now. No modern-looking parts of the Homelands, though. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/16 "2007-07-20T04:36:37Z")
The thing that got me started on this was the recent plotline where Geppetto is working on a plan to essentially sterlize Earth. When I read this I was surprised as I assumed that the Fables (including Geppetto) needed Earth as a source for their existence. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/17 "2007-07-20T04:38:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Does Fables take place in the DC Universe? An interesting idea would be to consider that characters like Batman and Superman are at least as much a part of modern folklore as Mowgli and Pinocchio. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/18 "2007-07-20T04:42:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Bill Willingham has said he doesn’t want to use gods, on the grounds that they’re too powerful and story-breaking. So if they do, they won’t get involved. Willingham has a very controversial history involving religious figures. He may be trying to avoid (or may have been told to avoid) re-opening that can of worms. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/19 "2007-07-20T04:43:05Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] An interesting idea would be to consider that characters like Batman and Superman are at least as much a part of modern folklore as Mowgli and Pinocchio. [/QUOTE] Yes, but of course Willingham will only use characters in the public domain. And, it’s possible Gepetto doesn’t realize that Earth is necessary. Maybe the metaphysical mechanics of such things have been figured out (or speculated on) only by the refugee Fables in the Mundy world, and the Adversary and his people think ours is just another world. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351/20 "2007-07-20T05:00:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, but of course Willingham will only use characters in the public domain. Fables is a DC comic book, so they already own the rights. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fables-comic-book-series-spoilers-discussion-on-the-background/412351.md?page=2)