# Face it, some of you were duped **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 4, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616 "2003-06-04T15:32:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/61 "2003-06-05T13:38:15Z")
The link to the full editorial is on the previous page, about 3/4 of the way down. I was going to type in the URL again, but was seized by a vast ennui. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/62 "2003-06-05T14:10:45Z")
[Here](http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16055) is a good article on Jessica Lynch… From Congressman Dennis Kucinich. ---
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/63 "2003-06-05T14:50:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MegaDave \* > \*\*He was denying it recently (like just before the war) but the point to that was that he could not account for the WMD’s that he admitted to having in the past. As others have said, if they were destroyed, there would be evidence. So he either hid them, or moved them to another location (i.e.,m Syria, Iran, Etc.) \*\* The Iraqi ambassador to the UN stated that the chemicals had been disposed of and that soil sampling would yield non toxic but verifiable residue that would account for the entire undocumented volume. Verification by U.N. inspectors was pre-empted by our rush to war. Winter was passing and we wouldn’t want our soldiers to be uncomfy in their hot uniforms. Not to mention the growing swell of millions of voices around the world in opposition to the needless murder of countless Iraqis. But since those weren’t American lives, they don’t count. Their suffering isn’t real. They are after all, the BAD people that deserve it. They fired on our invading troops without even wearing a uniform! Kinda like the second amendment argument of self defense against an invading hoarde posed by NRA enthusiasts. Instead, we can flood our airways with images of the brave teenage girl; Jessica Lynch. Her suffering is real, unlike the tens of thousands of dead and dismembered Iraqis. Did S.H. have WMDs? Very definately. We know this because he bought them from the U.S. Did he have a right to own them as head of state of a soveriegn nation? Your call. We own a whole lot of the junk. Furthermore we don’t allow U.N. inspections because we consider ouselves above that by special privlege. Yeah but…S.H. invaded another country without provocasion. And the U.S. didn’t? Yeah but we live in a democracy so it is different…was George W. voted in? He was appointed by the Supreme Court without a majority popular vote and without a definative E.C. vote. But S.H. was an evil dictator with disregard for human rights.So is camp X-ray so much different? Does the patriot act make us a freer nation by limiting our civil liberties and enabling greater governmental intrusion into our personal lives? Yeah, but we only own WMD’s for a defensive posture. Fine, I’ll go off the whacko conspriatorial deep end. Isn’t it kind of odd that anthrax tracable to a government lab was mailed specifically to dems and left wing publications? Maybe I should write to Senator Wellstone and ask for an investigation. Blah. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/64 "2003-06-05T15:52:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons. > -GW Bush to the UN assembly 9/12/02 Has Saddam hidden, or moved all those “dual use” factories as well ? There was some talk about North Korea shipping it’s uranium enrichment facility off to Iran, but I’ve heard nothing about convoys of GIANT trucks carrying Iraqi factories over the border. We _knew_ they were there, so were are they ? ---
**Author:** ![regnad\_kcin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@regnad\_kcin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regnad_kcin)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/65 "2003-06-05T16:53:21Z")
Ill admit it, I was duped. I didnt for a minute think that Powell would present false information to the UN in order to justify war. I was adamantly AGAINST this war. I thought it was completely unnecessary. I was sure that weapons inspectors were going to be able to locate the WMDs given enough time. Little did I know that they wouldnt have been able to. But for different reasons than those given by the Bush administration. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/66 "2003-06-05T21:18:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*1. I wasn’t duped. Even if everything Powel said was gospel- I still maintain we had no right to invade. (Without UN Sanction) > > 1. About the WMD- sure Bush & co sold us on these. However, pre-Blix, way back when, the UN and all said there WERE massive WMD. Even SH admitted it- becuase in the UN they said they destroyed them. Now, Blix could find little evidence of them being destroyed and even Blix said this was fishy. If SH destroyed them pre-Blix (as he claimed)- why stall on the Inspections? Why not invite the UN inspectors to a huge BBQ and WMD destruction party? The sanctions were costing Saddam BILLIONS. My guess is that some were destroyed, but the rest were hidden way deep in the desert- or more likely moved, maybe to Syria. I think he got rid of the last of 'em post-Blix and pre-invasion. Of course, if you like, you can beleive that SH destroyed them out of the goodness of his heart pre-Blix, but just didn’t bother to keep any documentation. :rolleyes: Bush & Powell exaggerated the danger, no doubt. > > 2. Al-quada. Yep, here the Bush admin pulled a fast one, a “smoke & mirrors” magic trick. SH did support Islamic terrorism. Al Qaeda are Islamic terrorists. Thus, by showing us the “the hat & the rabbit” - Powell & Bush basicly inferred that the Rabbit came out of the hat- without ever QUITE saying so. Cheap, yes- but not quite a lie. > > 3. However, we did find prove positive that SH was even more horrible evil & sadistic that we thought. And now the Iraqi people- and the world- are better off without his evil ass. And, that is a “good thing”. Already, by SH just being gone this short time, we have stopped more horrible atrocities than innocent bystanders killed by our bombs. > > (Still, this last, although it mollifies me somewhat, is STILL not a good enough reason to invade). \*\* I agree with all four points. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/67 "2003-06-05T22:52:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MegaDave \* > I personally think that he did both. He moved the bulk of them (probably to Syria, although I have no evidence of this), Why would Saddam Hussein move his WMDs into a _hostile neighbor’s_ country? > [@](#): > > but he hid some somewhere inside the country (maybe in the vast undgerground tunnels) in case he needed to use them. And when the American forces were rolling into Baghdad, he was all set to use them, but forgot the combination to the locker? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/68 "2003-06-06T10:56:23Z")
If you honestly think Saddam destroyed his arsenal, you are a lot more gullible than anyone who believes Bush. You tip your hands when you take Saddams’ word over a man like Colin Powell. ---
**Author:** ![regnad\_kcin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@regnad\_kcin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/regnad_kcin)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/69 "2003-06-06T11:53:38Z")
Adaher, I dont think a single person here believes “Saddam Hussein’s word over a man like Colin Powell” based on character. I dont think a single person here thinks Saddam Hussein is a nicer or more trustworthy guy than Powell. People are basing this opinion purely on raw evidence. As soon as the 100-500 tons of chemical weapons show up we can discuss this further. Hell, as soon as a single ounce shows up. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/70 "2003-06-06T11:59:40Z")
You can assume there are no WMD. But it takes a rather weird leap of logic to assume Bush lied about their presence. If they aren’t there, Bush and most of the rest of the world shared the same delusion. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/71 "2003-06-06T12:02:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*You tip your hands when you take Saddams’ word over a man like Colin Powell. \*\* It’s a logical fallacy to assume that an asshole is ALWAYS lying and the better man is ALWAYS telling the truth. Sometimes the asshole happens to be right. And when the better man is a politician, you be 100 percent sure he isn’t ALWAYS telling the truth. Just because there’s someone worse than you, doesn’t mean every word out of your mouth is the truth. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/72 "2003-06-06T12:05:21Z")
That is true, of course, but if you don’t know, who would you give the benefit of the doubt? For some of you, Saddam is the man to trust. ---
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/73 "2003-06-06T12:07:00Z")
Report just out. Defense Intelligence from sep 02’ says it is unclear if SH has stockpiles of weapons or production facilities. So much for the weird leap. As far as the rest of the world, I simply recall the mantra, “Americans know SH has weapons of mass destruction.” Repeated ad infinitum until it became ingrained. In the same way, about 50% of the populace were gullible enough to beleive SH bore reponsibility for 9-11. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/74 "2003-06-06T12:11:07Z")
Er, Americans weren’t the only ones saying he had WMD\> And it is revealing that France and Germany and Russia did not use his innocence as a defense. They implicitly, and sometimes explicitly, acknowledged that they belived he had them. ---
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/75 "2003-06-06T12:20:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*Er, Americans weren’t the only ones saying he had WMD\> > > And it is revealing that France and Germany and Russia did not use his innocence as a defense. They implicitly, and sometimes explicitly, acknowledged that they belived he had them. \*\* Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply that some in the international community weren’t equally duped by the fabricated pretext for war. The fact remains, the Bush admin was emphatic he definately had them, and the report released this morning seems to suggest they had intelligence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/76 "2003-06-06T12:57:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\*You can assume there are no WMD. But it takes a rather weird leap of logic to assume Bush lied about their presence. If they aren’t there, Bush and most of the rest of the world shared the same delusion. \*\* All right. Let’s assume for a minute that he was deluded as well, that all of the intel he received was completely wrong. That he made the right decision based on what he knew. If that is true AND it’s true that no WMD were there - both just possibilities, not certainties - then it we can conclude two things: that the intel communities were incompetent and that the president bears ultimate responsibility, no matter what. For if he wishes to lean on faulty intel - again, hypothetically - and use it as a platform form which to launch a military attack - then he must be held responsible for that. He was very adamant about there being WMDs. VERY. They’re everywhere! he yelled. They’ll use them RIGHT NOW! he screeched. Now, if he honestly believed they were there but it turns out they never were there, then he’s incredibly stupid for taking such a strong stance - and alienating a lot of allies - on what might have been flimsy evidence. Again, hypothetically. ---
**Author:** ![MegaDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/db5fbb/32.png) [@MegaDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaDave)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/77 "2003-06-06T13:51:09Z")
Well, considering even the UN thought that he had WMD’s (as seen by some of the reports from Hans Blix, a UN weapons inspector), whom should we hold responsible for that? Why isn’t the UN help to the same accountability as Bush? How about Jacque Chirac of France? Or the German Chancelor (whos name for some reason escapes me at this moment)? Or how about all of the other people that said there were WMD’s? Is it possible that the only one held accountable for this is Bush is simply becuase there are so many Bush haters out there? I think so. The hypocrisy of it all is astounding. Yes, if Bush relied on CIA and FBI (and probably NSA) reports that turn out to be false, then some people should most certainly be fired. If the reports were incorrect on purpose (i.e., someone made them up out of malicous intent) then there should be a congressional hearing on it. However, in the role of POTUS, he has no choice but to rely on his intelligence reports, unless of course, you think he should have personally been responsible for finding that intelligence out for himself. Of course, it that were true, then everyone would be harping that he should rely on his existing intelligence reports instead of trying to do it himself. My point is that no matter what Bush does, some are always going to find fault in it. What about the mass graves? What about him using mustard gas and serin gas on the Kurds? What about all of the Iraqi people that celebrated when he was overthrown? What about the fact that there is now progress between Isreal and Palistine (which some have attributed soley to the fact that SH is gone)? What about all of the good things that have happened now? What about SH’s sons abusing their people while living in the lap of luxury? Why didn’t SH come out and say “Hey, I’ve got no WMD’s come see for yourself”? I mean after all, the UN restrictions and sanctions placed on Iraq simply becuase the UN thougt he had WMD’s were costing him BILLIONS every year. If he didn’t have any, why would he be willing to lose that much money? You cannot adequately explain why SH was willing to put up with all the sanctions if he didn’t have any WMD’s. How come he thwarted almost every attempt by the UN weapons inspections teams? Until you can show me why all this supicous behavior was ok, then I will go with the rest of the world that says they believed he had them. > [@](#): > > Why would Saddam Hussein move his WMDs into a hostile neighbor’s country? Syria was in no way hostile to Iraq. In fact, a lot of the top Iraqi officials were said to have escaped to Syria, and there is nothing that leads me to believe that Syrai was hostile to Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/78 "2003-06-06T14:00:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MegaDave \* > \*\* Why isn’t the UN help to the same accountability as Bush? How about Jacque Chirac of France? Or the German Chancelor (whos name for some reason escapes me at this moment)? Or how about all of the other people that said there were WMD’s? > \*\* Hmmm, could it be because Bush was the only one hell bent on bombing the shit out of a country and invading it without provocation or immenent threat? ---
**Author:** ![MegaDave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/db5fbb/32.png) [@MegaDave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaDave)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/79 "2003-06-06T14:08:15Z")
Actually Bush isn’t the only one. You have the obvious choice of Mr. Blair and his countrymen. But then you also have all the other members of the coalition. Australia helped, same with Turkey. According to [this](http://www.annieshomepage.com/supportourtroopscoalition.html) cite (which is just the first one that I pulled up and seemed reputable despite their religous bent) there wer 49 countried involved in the coalition that helped to topple SH. Now sure, some of them didn’t send troops and only helped financially, but the point is that they all believed in principal what Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush were saying. So since you picked out only one point out of the 10 or so questions I asked you, am I to assume that you have no answer for the rest? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616/80 "2003-06-06T14:10:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MegaDave \* > **Well, considering even the UN thought that he had WMD’s (as seen by some of the reports from Hans Blix, a UN weapons inspector), whom should we hold responsible for that? Why isn’t the UN help to the same accountability as Bush?** > [@](#): > > [http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=aE30W8DOwPC8&refer=uk](http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=aE30W8DOwPC8&refer=uk) > June 5 (Bloomberg) – United Nations chief weapons inspector Hans Blix said the U.S. should not have concluded that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction because Saddam Hussein’s regime had failed to account for all illegal arms declared during the 1990s. > > "There remain long lists of items unaccounted for, but it is not justified to jump to the conclusion that something exists just because it is unaccounted for,’’ Blix told the Security Council in his final appearance before the 15-nation panel at UN headquarters in New York. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MegaDave \* > \*\* How about Jacque Chirac of France? Or the German Chancelor (whos name for some reason escapes me at this moment)? Or how about all of the other people that said there were WMD’s? \*\* Well, maybe because it wasn’t the French and the Germans that presented forged documents as evidence, and then actually invaded? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MegaDave \* > \*\*Is it possible that the only one held accountable for this is Bush is simply becuase there are so many Bush haters out there? I think so. The hypocrisy of it all is astounding. \*\* It’s also possible that GWB should be held accountable because he’s the one directly or indirectly _responsible_ for all this crap. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MegaDave \* > \*\*Yes, if Bush relied on CIA and FBI (and probably NSA) reports that turn out to be false, then some people should most certainly be fired. If the reports were incorrect on purpose (i.e., someone made them up out of malicous intent) then there should be a congressional hearing on it. \*\* No disagreement there about _what_ should happen, but probably about _who_ it should happen to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/face-it-some-of-you-were-duped/179616.md?page=5)