Facial and neck tattoos. Do they have problems finding jobs?

[Kolga]

@Hunter_Hawk

Okay, so you’re choosing to apply a double standard. Apparently the issue is not “you must conform to majority standards”; it’s “you must conform to majority standards unless you’re from a culture where different standards apply, and I can’t define what I mean by culture but I’ll know it when I see it.”

The meaning of facial modification in mainstream American culture is not the same as the meaning of facial modification in tribal cultures where it is a rite of passage. The fact that the two acts, while the same acts, have different meanings means that people who are observing them are going to come to different interpretations.

The interpretation of facial modification on someone from a culture where it is a rite of passage could range from “hey, there’s someone who participated in his/her culture’s rite of passage” to “hey, there’s someone who participated in his/her culture’s rite of passage and aren’t those people savages” to “hey, there’s someone who participated in his/her culture’s rite of passage and I totally wish we had the same things here!”

The interpretation of facial modification in most American culture could range from “hey, there’s someone who has chosen to engage in a behavior that in this culture is loaded with meaning that isn’t always positive” to "hey, there’s someone who has chosen to engage in a behavior that in this culture is loaded with meaning that isn’t always positive and those kind of people are [criminals, stupid, poseurs, gangsters, drug addicts, freaks, not trustworthy] to “hey, there’s someone who has chosen to engage in a behavior that in this culture is loaded with meaning that isn’t always positive and I like those kind of people!”

As you can see, it’s my opinion that because the behavior has completely different meaning based on the cultural context, it’s not a double standard to have different interpretations of the behavior.

@Hunter_Hawk

I assume you wouldn’t endorse murdering people based on how they adorn themselves, but you are endorsing a refusal to let them enter particular areas of the workforce. What’s the tipping point in that continuum from acceptable treatment of others to unacceptable treatment? And what criteria are appropriate to use as a basis for those judgments? (Bearing in mind that the constructs of “acceptable” vs. “unacceptable” vs. “illegal” acts and “protected classes” are themselves social agreements.)

I love the strawmen that are coming out in this thread - from genocide to tattoo discrimination being the same as racial discrimination to murdering people, all because of a discussion about the fact that facial tattooing for many people in this country has a connotation that’s not positive.

I’m not endorsing anything, by the way. I’m discussing the fact that there are reasons that people with facial tattoos are probably going to encounter difficulties obtaining employment in a wide range of industries, for a while at least. Discussion of reasons for the existence of a phenomenon is not endorsement of that phenomenon.

[Unintentionally_Blank]

Is this thread actually ABOUT people with facial tat’s that are bitching because they can’t be bankers?

Just curious, because we may be hypothetically debating a hypothetical, about a hypothetical, that doesn’t hypothetically happen.

[Kolga]

The original OP was a question about whether or not people with facial tattoos have trouble finding jobs. The discussion, as is usual around these parts, has now morphed into a discussion of why that might be, if it is true, along with a side discussion regarding sweatpants.

[Unintentionally_Blank]

Well, yeah, but is the reason the person can’t get a job due to their facial tattoos, or because they’re an idiot? Hypothetically?

[Kolga]

It’s because they wore sweatpants.

In all seriousness, unless there’s an actual study out there that looks at unemployment rates by tattoo style (presence/absence, facial/neck/visible/not visible), I’m not sure if there’s a factual way to answer this question. So we’re back to anecdotes and suppositions.

Plus, any data will be contaminated by the fact that people with facial tattoos will tend to be people who may not want to be all that dialed in to other aspects of the mainstream culture, so they might not stay in jobs as often, might not apply for jobs that they suspect they won’t get, might be more likely to go into business for themselves, etc.

It’s definitely an interesting sociological study for someone.

The bitching part was added because I do personally know a number of non-mainstream-type people, and some of them (definitely not all) have a tendency to bitch about not being able to be taken seriously by the aspects of mainstream society that they want to enter (like jobs). And my response to that is the aforementioned “can’t have it both ways.” I mean, if you walk around all the time with your pet human on a leash (yes, I have a friend who has one of these types of relationships), and then wonder why people like the manager at Kinko’s who took your job application aren’t completely open-minded about you working there, you’re kinda either missing the point of your self-chosen behavior to shock people or you want to have your cake and eat it, too.

[Guinastasia]

What the hell is wrong with wearing a hoodie and a pair of sweatpants, as long as they’re neat and clean? Seriously, if someone’s just been out jogging, and needs to run in and pick something up, you’re supposed to go home and change? WTF?

[Unintentionally_Blank]

@Kolga

Plus, any data will be contaminated by the fact that people with facial tattoos will tend to be people who may not want to be all that dialed in to other aspects of the mainstream culture, so they might not stay in jobs as often, might not apply for jobs that they suspect they won’t get, might be more likely to go into business for themselves, etc.

Or they may tend to fail their drug tests. Causation does not equal correlation, but you may find the folks that WANT to be accountants, typically don’t do a whole lotta body modification.

[Kolga]

@Unintentionally_Blank

Or they may tend to fail their drug tests. Causation does not equal correlation, but you may find the folks that WANT to be accountants, typically don’t do a whole lotta body modification.

True, selection bias is going to be a concern, as well. Although I have a feeling that there are plenty of accountants and bankers out there with tats and piercings that are more easily covered when necessary.

[jellyblue]

Personally, most neck tattoos (haven’t seen facial tattoos in person) bother me a lot less than those ear piercings you could drive a truck through ::shudder::.

Also, as a therapist I will tell you that people with nose piercings have trouble with snot. If you’re crying and blowing your nose a lot it’s more of an issue than you might expect.

[Guinastasia]

@jellyblue

Also, as a therapist I will tell you that people with nose piercings have trouble with snot. If you’re crying and blowing your nose a lot it’s more of an issue than you might expect.

:dubious:
I have my nose pierced and I don’t have any more trouble with snot than I did before I got it pierced.

[Dangerosa]

@Kolga

True, selection bias is going to be a concern, as well. Although I have a feeling that there are plenty of accountants and bankers out there with tats and piercings that are more easily covered when necessary.

Oh yeah. Body art is places where you can choose to expose it or not is downright mainstream.

Someone around here said it well when they said “it isn’t edgy anymore when my mom has one.” My mom doesn’t, but a lot of my 40-55 year old girlfriends who are some teenager’s mother do. And they are teachers and nurses and CFPs. (No accountants though. I’m the accountant and I haven’t felt strongly enough about any art to choose to have it permanently applied to my body).

[Hunter_Hawk]

@Kolga

wonder why people like the manager at Kinko’s who took your job application aren’t completely open-minded about you working there

Interesting example considering that the main reason Kinko’s is open 24 hours is because the people they were attracting as employees were the type of folks who wanted to stay up all night in the first place.

But hey, you say “strawman”, I say “explore boundary conditions”. Potato, potahto.

[sparky_1]

@Guinastasia

What the hell is wrong with wearing a hoodie and a pair of sweatpants, as long as they’re neat and clean? Seriously, if someone’s just been out jogging, and needs to run in and pick something up, you’re supposed to go home and change? WTF?

Yes

I saw a guy at the Doctor recently and he was wearing sweatpants. But they were tight sweatpants. Ick.

The point (I think) is that one should have the self respect to present one self appropriately. If you wear sweatpants in public, you may as well just give everyone you meet a giant FU.

As can be seen, I rate sweatpants-wearing-in-public as way worse than face/neck tattoos.

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

Fine, Hunter Hawk, you’re right. Go do whatever you want to your face, wear whatever you want, lead people around on leashes, wear a fursuit, etc. The way you present yourself to the world will not have any kind of effect on how people treat/think of you. No one *ever *judges anyone else, rightly or wrongly, by how they look.

[gravitycrash]

@Guinastasia

What the hell is wrong with wearing a hoodie and a pair of sweatpants, as long as they’re neat and clean? Seriously, if someone’s just been out jogging, and needs to run in and pick something up, you’re supposed to go home and change? WTF?

Yeah but how neat and clean are you after jogging? :dubious:

We had a somewhat humorous thread on sweatpants wearing about a year ago.

I gotta agree with DianaG about sweatpants though.The only people who can pull this look off are female tweens who are in shape. Everyone else looks like they just got out of bed.

I’m a lecherous old man though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

[Hunter_Hawk]

@Eyebrows_0f_Doom

Fine, Hunter Hawk, you’re right. Go do whatever you want to your face, wear whatever you want, lead people around on leashes, wear a fursuit, etc. The way you present yourself to the world will not have any kind of effect on how people treat/think of you. No one *ever *judges anyone else, rightly or wrongly, by how they look.

You seem to be glossing over the fact that I never actually claimed that people don’t judge others. I was pointing out that it might be interesting to be a bit more conscious about the application of standards.

[CanvasShoes]

@DianaG

You’re correct that wearing sweatpants to the grocery store isn’t relevant to a job interview in the way that having visible ink is, but my point wasn’t so much about the job thing as just that yes, how we choose to appear says something about us, and sweatpants say “I’m a lazy slob who has given up on life” at least as much as visible ink says “I spit on your bourgeois picket fence sensibilities.”

(sorry, I’ve given up on making my ancient old lady memory figure out how to do post in post posts).

I guess this is where I’m perplexed. That is, that it doesn’t say to you “I am doing housework and needed to run to the store in the middle of chores because I ran out of X” but instead gives you an overall picture of their entire life philosophy?

Generally, I end up shopping in my actual work clothes (office casual) because I typically run by the grocery store on the way home, but I have done plenty of running to the store in my housework wear, or dogwalking/work out gear as well (not sweatpants, I like those colorful cartoon-y “lounge” pants). And I don’t get that “I refuse to dress up while in the middle of a house-cleaning surge just to go get dishwasher soap” translates to YOU as “this person is a slob who’s given up on life”.

Maybe where you live. Here it’s a norm for the trashy and/or lazy. Well, and the fat. And, to be fair, the very young, but presumably most of them will grow out of it.

Then you’re seeing the same people, at the same grocery store at all different hours wearing the same sweatpants? Because I guess, again, my main question is “how do you know what their life philosophy is, when you’re only seeing them for a few minutes out of their life”? That is, as opposed to a permanent and offensive “FU” like HATE on the knuckles which leaves no doubt.

As I said before, the main difference I see is “I once exercised bad judgement” vs. “I’m exercising bad judgement right now”. Of course, I don’t see much actually offensive body art, which means that either you run into much more of it, or we have different standards of “offensive”. Most likely some combination of the two.

Well to me, a full body naked woman with EXTREMELY visible and upstanding nipples on view to all of the public is pretty offensive. (man I used to be acquainted with). As is “HATE” across the knuckles, which I’ve seen a lot of people have. I can’t see how sweatpants are more offensive than that. Or, perhaps we don’t have the same definition of sweatpants.

I don’t really think of sweatpants as “work clothes”, and I’m trying to imagine in what context they would be. Maybe for warmth if one works outside? But honestly, if your job is sufficiently not client-facing that you can wear sweatpants, I can’t imagine a little (non-offensive) visible ink would be a problem.

When I say work clothes I don’t mean career or office wear, I mean Work, as in housework, yard work, walking the dog or cleaning the car work. You know, normal life chore work not career work.

I don’t know about your neighborhood, but I can discern quite a bit about your worldview from this.

Your first statement is the most correct, you don’t know the neighborhood where my usual grocery store is located. But yeah, you are incorrect in deducing that my world-view must of course be, that anyone looking too made up must be a welfare queen. So no, that’s not the case. It’s apparent from these girls’ conversations (loud, unavoidable, full of obvious clues about public assistance appointments and the like, and look-at-me) attitudes, that that’s their Modus Operandi.

And honestly, I’m just flabbergasted that you think the people who went to work that day are the ones in sweatpants, and not the ones in makeup, since I wear makeup to work every day, but I sure as hell don’t wear sweatpants.

Of course not, and as I describe above I’m talking about work clothes as in chores type work, not CAREER. What on earth do you wear to do chores in? And if you run out of something in the middle of a Saturday spent doing chores, are you telling me that you dress all up to go to the store? Or if you’re in the middle of putting up shelves, or some other home improvement, do you really change out of your work clothes to go get more paint or whatever?

Because frankly, your arguments about sweatpants are the same ones people were making about jeans when I was a young lass.

[DianaG]

@CanvasShoes

Of course not, and as I describe above I’m talking about work clothes as in chores type work, not CAREER. What on earth do you wear to do chores in? And if you run out of something in the middle of a Saturday spent doing chores, are you telling me that you dress all up to go to the store? Or if you’re in the middle of putting up shelves, or some other home improvement, do you really change out of your work clothes to go get more paint or whatever?

I wear sweatpants to do my in-the-house chores. And yeah, if I have to leave the house, I put real clothes on, because I’m not so lazy that I consider 30 seconds out of my life to change out of my pajamas an unreasonable hardship.

Because frankly, your arguments about sweatpants are the same ones people were making about jeans when I was a young lass.

And suddenly you’re all about embracing social change. :rolleyes:

[CanvasShoes]

@DianaG

I wear sweatpants to do my in-the-house chores. And yeah, if I have to leave the house, I put real clothes on, because I’m not so lazy that I consider 30 seconds out of my life to change out of my pajamas an unreasonable hardship.

Well, if I’m in the middle of doing chores, it’s going to take more than 30 seconds to change. I’m not going to change into perfectly good “nice” clothes after I’ve been drilling holes to hang shelves or whatever until I clean up first, brush off the sawdust, and clean up the paint or whatever. As I said, to ME, it’s pretty obvious that the sweatpants wearing folks are in the midst of something and had to run to the store, rather than that they’re some sort of loser that’s given up on life. As I said, I wear those colorful cartoon-y lounge pants things. I like them because they’re bright and happy.

You do your chores in your pajamas?

And suddenly you’re all about embracing social change. :rolleyes:

What bug is in your craw? I’m not “embracing” anything, merely pointing it out. You’re acting the same way about sweatpants that people acted about jeans not that long ago. But yet it’s all fine, dandy, and socially acceptable for people to wear tacky, and permanent tats? There nothing social change-y about that observation.

[jellyblue]

@Guinastasia

:dubious:
I have my nose pierced and I don’t have any more trouble with snot than I did before I got it pierced.

Sorry, Guinastasia, I meant no offense. I’m not claiming scientific conclusions by any means, just noting observations made over many 50 minute sessions.