# Facilitated Communication rears its ugly head again **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 13, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134 "2008-04-13T05:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/61 "2008-04-16T20:11:28Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] You have to be joking. [/QUOTE] Why would you think he’s joking? It’s an excellent idea. Perhaps the image they show the kid could be Duran Duran performing “Rio.” ---
**Author:** ![lisacurl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/41988e/32.png) [@lisacurl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisacurl)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/62 "2008-04-16T20:53:47Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Why would you think he’s joking? It’s an excellent idea. Perhaps the image they show the kid could be Duran Duran performing “Rio.” [/QUOTE] I think they should rickroll him. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/63 "2008-04-16T20:56:18Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] You have to be joking. [/QUOTE] No, it can work if you do it in stages. 1. Show the kid something her mother can’t see. 2. **Then** sit the kid down at the keyboard, with her mother “guiding” her hands, and challenge the kid to describe it. 3. Ignore tears. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/64 "2008-04-16T21:11:27Z")
Guys, there’s a giant whoosh going on here. \*\* Don’t fight the hypothetical’s\*\* suggestion is about the fifth time it has been mentioned in fifty posts or so. ---
**Author:** ![NightRabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbce88/32.png) [@NightRabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NightRabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/65 "2008-04-16T21:19:37Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Guys, there’s a giant whoosh going on here. \*\* Don’t fight the hypothetical’s\*\* suggestion is about the fifth time it has been mentioned in fifty posts or so. [/QUOTE] But I only came into the thread to suggest just that… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/66 "2008-04-16T22:01:12Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Why would you think he’s joking? It’s an excellent idea. Perhaps the image they show the kid could be Duran Duran performing “Rio.” [/QUOTE] Or the “Smash The Mirror” scene from _Tommy_. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/67 "2008-04-16T22:07:59Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] Or the “Smash The Mirror” scene from _Tommy_. [/QUOTE] Do you hear or fear or do I smash the keybooooooooard? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/68 "2008-04-17T13:16:12Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Guys, there’s a giant whoosh going on here. \*\* Don’t fight the hypothetical’s\*\* suggestion is about the fifth time it has been mentioned in fifty posts or so. [/QUOTE] Are you taking any prescription medication? ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/69 "2008-04-17T14:03:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Are you taking any prescription medication? [/QUOTE] Why, is some missing? Because whenever it disappeared I wasn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/70 "2008-04-17T14:07:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Are you taking any prescription medication? [/QUOTE] Why do you ask? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/71 "2008-04-17T14:22:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Are you taking any prescription medication? [/QUOTE] Is this some kind of reverse double whoosh? This thread is making me think I need to start some kind of prescription medication. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/72 "2008-04-17T14:46:57Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Why do you ask? [/QUOTE] I’m **definitely** not supposed to be off the grounds for more than an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/73 "2008-04-17T14:49:13Z")
Hey everyone, I think we’ve been whooshed. It was obviously a play on the fact that so many people had already mentioned showing an object only to the kid and having the mom interpret the kid’s motions. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/74 "2008-04-17T15:06:57Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Hey everyone, I think we’ve been whooshed. It was obviously a play on the fact that so many people had already mentioned showing an object only to the kid and having the mom interpret the kid’s motions. This has the potential to turn into a running gag that I would find more amusing than the “Hi, Opal” though possibly not as much as “I, for one, welcome our new \_\_\_\_\_ masters!” or the classic metaphor for all poorly though out plans, “Step 3: Profits!” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/75 "2008-04-17T15:23:18Z")
And I think this particular gag has run into the ground. Please stop. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/76 "2008-04-17T15:25:27Z")
I am not blind to the fact that the “show mom something different from the kid” test keeps cropping up like a 20’s Style Death Ray, but it’s only funny since it is so obvious to everyone here that such a test is ridiculously easy and so definitive. _But it doesn’t seem to have occurred to the FC proponents._ An [entire fucking department at Syracuse University (!) exists just to promote it.](http://thefci.syr.edu/) > [@](#): > > Facilitated communication training, FCT…is one form of…communication that has been an effective means of expression for some individuals with labels of autism and other developmental disabilities. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/77 "2008-04-17T15:34:06Z")
If James Randi were doing the experiment, he would first do a control run in which mom does see the object, but represents to Randi that her knowledge is not affecting the child’s communication. So if the child identifies the object correctly 10 times out of 10, it establishes a baseline for comparison. Anyway, like somebody pointed out earlier, it’s a shame that mom’s fraud and self-deception deprived another child of the chance to win the essay contest. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/78 "2008-04-17T15:49:44Z")
[Here](http://thefci.syr.edu//Authorship2006.htm)’s an interesting page from that Syracuse University site that has something to say about “demonstrating authorship”. ETA: Hmm, that was supposed to be a follow up to a previous post of mine. But the previous post seems to have failed to have been posted somehow. Basically, I said I wasn’t so sure the Syracuse site was an example of something illegitimate. I said it appears to me there are good kinds of FC and bad kinds of FC. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/79 "2008-04-17T16:09:09Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Basically, I said I wasn’t so sure the Syracuse site was an example of something illegitimate. I said it appears to me there are good kinds of FC and bad kinds of FC. [/QUOTE] So how do you distinguish good from bad? Good link to the list of reports. As far as “legitimate”, Syracuse U has been a proponent of the technique for a long time, even when others have dropped the idea for lack of validity. I think they’re serious, but driven mostly by wishful thinking, especially after reading some of the reports. From Frylock’s link, scroll down to “Klewe, L. (1993).” > [@](#): > > Using 15 pictures (12 with “objects within the patients’ world” (p. 561) and 3 blank), experimental settings included 3 series: (A) a setting where “both the patient and the facilitator could see the pictures,” (B) a setting where “a screen was added …so that the facilitator could not see the pictures being shown,” and (C) a setting where the screen remained and “each was shown the pictures but not in the same order” (p. 561). > > “There was a distinct relation between picture and answer in almost all cases [(i.e., 95%)] in series A where the facilitators could see the pictures shown to the patients. In series B and C, where the facilitators could not see the pictures seen by the patient, there was a lack of relation between the picture seen by the patient and the answer in almost all cases [(i.e., only 2% of all responses in each setting)]” (p. 562). Moreover, “\*n series C only two answers out of 108 (2%) were related to the patients’ pictures, but 43 out of 108 (40%) were related to the facilitators’ pictures” (p. 563), suggesting the facilitators’ influence. One thing we are not told is how the pictures were chosen or evaluated to be similar or dissimilar or how much “slop” there might be in the responses, also how many different ones there were (to establish the probability of getting some right by guessing), or how the randomization was done. But that’s a pretty strong result. And this test includes a baseline (Setting A). ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2008, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134/80 "2008-04-17T16:22:40Z")
[QUOTE=Musicat] So how do you distinguish good from bad? [/quote] Heck, I don’t know, that’s for researchers to think about. Iit looks like _sometimes_ FC is genuinely allowing purportedly non-communicative people to communicate, and _sometimes_ it’s wishful thinking. You’re exactly right that the task should be figuring out how to separate the BS techniques and circumstances from the non-BS. But given that there remains evidence that this kind of thing does work for some people in some circumstances, it seems to be a mistake to simply dismiss anything that goes under the FC label. There’s both a scientific and an ethical issue here. To address the ethical issue in a way that may be tangential to the scientific issue: I’d rather risk the possibility that some non-communicators are falsely treated as communicating than the possibility that some communicators are falsely treated as not communicating. -FrL- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facilitated-communication-rears-its-ugly-head-again/445134.md?page=5)