# Facing Middle Age With No Degree, & No Wife- The growing cohort of unmarriageable men
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [August 8, 2006, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848 "2006-08-08T13:04:43Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/21 "2006-08-08T20:36:03Z")
Wow, I think of guys like Bosda, Doug and Sunspace as good guys, certainly upstanding folks from what I know on the boards. Of course I think I am not in the league of guys like that!
What strikes me as funny (not ha-ha) is something I realized when I was posting about my food issues. We can all be very funny and smart in a lot of ways on these boards even with severe personal issues. So maybe those issues aren’t the whole story after all.
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### Author:  [@Tomcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tomcat)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/22 "2006-08-08T20:37:00Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#):
>
> Here’s something me and a number of female friends were discussing when it comes to men and success: we all agreed that a man doesn’t neccesarily have to _have_ something, but he’s got to _want_ something. In other words, you don’t already have to have the big house and the SUV and the 401(k), but you’ve got to have some drive to want to better yourself and take care of yours. By “take care of yours” I don’t mean buying her shoes, or whatever, but taking care of the things that need taking care of: your health, your life, your friends, your career, your family.
>
> But love from someone else isn’t going to mean anything if you don’t love yourself first. That’s why women love confident, secure men – because if you’re insecure and you hate yourself, it doesn’t matter how much we love you. You’ll be convinced you don’t deserve it, and always be wondering why we’re ‘wasting’ our time on you. You’ve got to work on yourself first.
As someone in my life once put it: “The first part of ‘I love you’ is ‘I’.”
Do you know who ‘I’ is?
-Tcat
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/23 "2006-08-08T20:37:09Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#):
>
> What does a degree have to do with this? Since when does a girl say, “Oh he’s cute but he majored in art history ten years ago!”
>
> This never happens. Now, if you’re 40 and work at Burger King and drive a Pacer, you’re SOL, but it’s not like 99% of chicks give a crap about whether you finished college as long as your shit is otherwise together. I’m not seeing the connection between unmarried, and lack of formal college education.
I think the original article was talking about middle aged men who are in tight financial circumstances, and do not have career or life prospects for that situation improving anytime soon. Like it or not, a large cohort of the pool of available women make judgements based on either a man possessing significant resources, or the skills and attitudinal ability to acquire resources (as indicate by Mississippienne).
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### Author:  [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/24 "2006-08-08T20:38:27Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#):
>
> What does a degree have to do with this? Since when does a girl say, “Oh he’s cute but he majored in art history ten years ago!”
>
> This never happens. Now, if you’re 40 and work at Burger King and drive a Pacer, you’re SOL, but it’s not like 99% of chicks give a crap about whether you finished college as long as your shit is otherwise together. I’m not seeing the connection between unmarried, and lack of formal college education.
Well, I don’t know I’m qualified to say what “99% of chicks give a crap about,” but many people with college educations want to meet partners who also have a college education. More is involved than a notion of success or the togetherness of one’s shit. People with similar educations will probably just be more compatible.
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### Author:  [@Rebecca\_DiMwitter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebecca_DiMwitter)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/25 "2006-08-08T21:08:51Z")
Dear goddd, I would have KILLED for a partner who just wanted to cover his own share of the expenses instead of living off me! This hasn’t been the case 100% of the time, but certainly for the last 4 of 5 relationships I have had. Money has nothing to do with it, guys. Some of us women are at least financially self-sufficient and would do our part to share as long as we didn’t have to carry the whole burden. The stereotypical man-supporting-his-wife days are over, aren’t they? They are for me!
I am 48 and seriously decided that while I wanted a man in my life, I didn’t particularly want marriage. I have one child left at home but not for long, and there seemed no reason for it. When I met the current b/f, however, it was a dealbreaker for him if I said I wouldn’t ever consider marriage in the future. He likes the notion of marriage I guess, although I don’t especially understand it. It’s the ultimate in commitment for him, and so I have had to rethink my ideas. I have finally agreed that I will consider it when the time comes, since I clearly want to stay with him for the rest of my life, and remarriage seems a small thing to to agree to, for me. Hell, I might even like being married again!
There are women like me out there, who would love to have an intelligent, conversant, dedicated companion (especially one who so clearly WANTS to be in a relationship!) with a wry sense of humor and a decided, lively preference for books-music-movies-art-political or intellectual discussion. Women such as myself wouldn’t be bothered by “poverty” assuming you could at least contribute, and the future would be the one we made together, not the one you think you deserve alone. I found a guy very much like you, **Bosda** , only about a decade older than you are. We’re both working on finding him better employment for his education (an MBA) at HIS age, and several opportunities have now opened up for him as a result (a great one just this week, in fact).
Early 40’s are still very young, all you wonderful men! I just want to hug all of you! I recommend the internet as well, and you needn’t even start with the dating sites(tho it might be an eventuality), if you open yourselves to forums similar to this one, or other like-minded discussion sites–select one which corresponds with your own interests. We’re around waiting for guys like you, I promise. Socialize!
–Beck
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### Author:  [@anu-la1979](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anu-la1979)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/26 "2006-08-08T21:13:25Z")
> [@](#):
>
> **Grossbottom** :This never happens. Now, if you’re 40 and work at Burger King and drive a Pacer, you’re SOL, but it’s not like 99% of chicks give a crap about whether you finished college as long as your shit is otherwise together. I’m not seeing the connection between unmarried, and lack of formal college education.
I’d have to disagree. More than just a few of my law school girlfriends rigourously screened on the basis of education-and almost all of those required what was umm, referred to as a “corresponding doctorate or MBA.” Which is to say a fellow JD or an MD or an MBA from a top school. A lot of them didn’t even want Ph.ds, though some said something in the hard sciences/high employability would be okay.
My sister has reported that most of her med school classmates have similar requirements.
As far as I can see it had a lot to do with income because education & income will generally correspond-some said it was because they didn’t think a guy could handle their future income and a lot said it’s because they didn’t want a moocher or couldn’t respect a guy who made less than them. I know you can say blahblahblah loads of lawyers don’t make that much money but most of the people I know started at 60K+, which I’ve heard can be more than a starting college professor.
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### Author:  [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/27 "2006-08-08T21:17:22Z")
> [@Walter Windchill](#):
>
> Well, I don’t know I’m qualified to say what “99% of chicks give a crap about,” but many people with college educations want to meet partners who also have a college education. More is involved than a notion of success or the togetherness of one’s shit. People with similar educations will probably just be more compatible.
I agree with this. Women with big degrees rarely date the guy who installs her a/c unit. And vice versa. I’m not saying it never happens, but it’s rare. You eat at different restaurants, take different vacations, run in different circles.
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### Author:  [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/28 "2006-08-08T21:19:59Z")
**Beck** , money does have something to do with it. Men are socialized into believing that they should be primary breadwinner. This is despite the fact that more women are currently earning degrees than men. Many men who can barely make ends meet then wonder of their worth if he can’t provide. It’s a matter of pride; it’s a matter of feeling like a success. If one feels like they are worth nothing, it is hard to convince someone else you are worth something.
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### Author:  [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/29 "2006-08-08T21:22:05Z")
C’mon! If it wasn’t for middle-aged guys with no future and no wives, there wouldn’t be an Internet! 😃
Seriously, dudes and dudettes. Never say never. 5 years ago I would have jumped right in the middle of this, proclaiming my membership with honor. Now, I’m happily married to a woman I’d never imagined existed 5 years ago. Met her over this here intranet thingy. There seem to be a number of people that are well regarded here posting in this thread. Get off your lazy butts and get to know each other. You’d be surprised what might develop!
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### Author:  [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/30 "2006-08-08T21:23:55Z")
Well, yeah, the money thing is pretty much a given. This can’t upset or even surprise anyone past the age of 21. Who does Archie takes out when he has some money? Veronica. Because Veronica is hot, and Betty is not. If someone wants hot, he has to shine the jalopy and get a real job. If someone doesn’t want to do these things, he’s very lucky to get Betty. That’s ok, Betty has wondrous qualities, she’s just not hot. Betty is a sweetheart, Betty has low standards. Betty would probably date a leprotic homeless guy if she felt bad enough for him. Shit, forget Betty, Betty got married right after high school and you’ll have to wait until the late-30s, 2-kids divorce scene to get another crack at Betty.
But I don’t buy into the idea that baby breaks up with a guy because despite his huge trust fund, or his successful business venture(s), he never finished college. To the extent that a college degree means money, sure it’s a valid observation. But not an inch beyond that.
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### Author:  [@Rebecca\_DiMwitter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebecca_DiMwitter)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/31 "2006-08-08T21:36:03Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#):
>
> **Beck** , money does have something to do with it. Men are socialized into believing that they should be primary breadwinner. This is despite the fact that more women are currently earning degrees than men. Many men who can barely make ends meet then wonder of their worth if he can’t provide. It’s a matter of pride; it’s a matter of feeling like a success. If one feels like they are worth nothing, it is hard to convince someone else you are worth something.
Sadly, I will buy your argument. I just think it is worthless in the grand scheme of relationships for men to have been conditioned in this manner, and surely holds many back from creating (or even trying to create) satisfying partnerships. MEN may feel the way you describe, and I know it’s true…but not all women would judge a man poorly based upon his breadwinning abilities. That’s the extent of my point.
–Beck
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### Author:  [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/32 "2006-08-08T21:36:20Z")
I take great pride in not basing people’s worth as a person on their monetary worth, and have no plans to ever be a stay-at-home mom or anything like that. However, I still probably wouldn’t marry someone who didn’t have decent earning potential. The reason is, I like living in expensive urban areas, and I don’t think I could adjust too easily to a single-income lifestyle. OK, maybe I’m shallow, but I think in dating, we’re all entitled to our various shallownesses.
> [@Grossbottom](#):
>
> But I don’t buy into the idea that baby breaks up with a guy because despite his huge trust fund, or his successful business venture(s), he never finished college. To the extent that a college degree means money, sure it’s a valid observation. But not an inch beyond that.
I might date someone who didn’t have a college education, but I wouldn’t date someone who didn’t think that “having a college education” was a valuable thing. On Slashdot, you see people who say it’s better to start working early and saving money than go to college and learn theoretical stuff. I enjoy learning, the more theoretical the stuff the better, and I don’t think I’d be happy with someone who wasn’t willing to think about and argue with me about stuff that has no relevance to our day-to-day lives. (For example, Mr. Neville and I have had arguments about whether or not Hayward is part of Oakland, whether clams have snouts, and other questions like that) And certainly if someone thought I was a loser for going to grad school in astronomy instead of dropping out and starting a company ([this speech](http://www.snopes.com/quotes/ellison.htm) never really happened, but some people do think that way), I wouldn’t want to date or marry them.
If all else were equal, I’d probably pick someone with a college education and a lower salary over someone with no college education and a higher salary (assuming I could live the sort of lifestyle I would like with either). But I’m willing to grant that I have unusual taste in men- I don’t like big chest muscles, either (give me a nice fat or skinny geek, preferably with chest hair, instead… mmmm…). Where was I? I suppose I’ll do as an existence proof- there is at least one woman in the world who thinks the way I do about this.
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### Author:  [@Walter\_Windchill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walter_Windchill)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/33 "2006-08-08T21:37:13Z")
I personally always liked Betty better. She was pretty hot.
Grossbottom, you’re oversimplifying in the first case… if someone is already dating someone, presumably they know and accept whatever their education is, and won’t change their mind about them. The education “requirement” is more of a filtering technique (literally, in online dating) as a litmus test of compatibility. Money has nothing to do with it. I know a lot of women who would value the education _over_ income, preferring to date someone with a liberal arts background who works at a deli over a plumber or something who didn’t go to college but makes good dough. It’s just a matter of gauging compatibility.
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### Author:  [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/34 "2006-08-08T21:44:43Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#):
>
> If someone wants hot, he has to shine the jalopy and get a real job. If someone doesn’t want to do these things, he’s very lucky to get Betty. That’s ok, Betty has wondrous qualities, she’s just not hot. Betty is a sweetheart, Betty has low standards. Betty would probably date a leprotic homeless guy if she felt bad enough for him. Shit, forget Betty, Betty got married right after high school and you’ll have to wait until the late-30s, 2-kids divorce scene to get another crack at Betty.
OK, now I’m _howling_ with laughter. And trying very hard not to spray tuna fish sandwich all over my keyboard. Nice work, you magnificent bastard, you.
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### Author:  [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/35 "2006-08-08T21:47:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Originally posted by\*\* Mississippienne\*\*
> \*Here’s something me and a number of female friends were discussing when it comes to men and success: we all agreed that a man doesn’t neccesarily have to have something, but he’s got to want something. In other words, you don’t already have to have the big house and the SUV and the 401(k), but you’ve got to have some drive to want to better yourself and take care of yours. \*
This is so well-put. And it doesn’t have to ambition for material wealth. My husband has gone back to school to become an elementary school teacher. He plans to gets his MA and National Board Certification as soon as possible. That will never make us rich, but I’m so proud that he’s got goals and a plan and the drive to be the best teacher he can be. If you don’t have ambition of some kind, you’re a schlub. And who wants to date a schlub?
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### Author:  [@ouisey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouisey)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/36 "2006-08-08T21:49:45Z")
I’m another one of those unmarriageables…35 year old single mother.
However, I’m starting to realize that most of my stress over this comes from my belief that other people will see me as a failure. Or that they’ll wonder what’s wrong with me that I’m not with someone.
To be honest, I do enjoy spending my free time stripping the woodwork at my house. Or getting roaring drunk while making some complicated dish in the kitchen. I’ve noticed that I can be quite happy all by myself when I let myself be happy. It doesn’t mean that I don’t like to go out with my friends or meet new people occasionally, but life is starting to get a bit easier for me as I’m absorbing this idea…and not feeling desperate to find a man before another wrinkle appears.
I’ve spoken to other women about this relationship failure feeling, and it seems to be a common one. I wonder if men get the same feeling?
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### Author:  [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/37 "2006-08-08T22:12:39Z")
I want to know what caused the tide to turn with regard to men getting educations. Did the parents pass them over and give all the college money to the daughters? I just don’t get how a male dominated society suddenly curled up and quit supporting the male education. Does anyone have any insight to this?
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### Author:  [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/38 "2006-08-08T22:19:39Z")
For those who want to find a partner, I definitely echo the advice not to give up.
Don’t assume that all women require or even necessarily _want_ a guy who is making a lot of money.
Speaking for myself, the only thing I care about is if a guy has enough money to pay for his own needs. Beyond that, his income is irrelevant to me. I am in a rather high-stress career (I’m working on becoming a physician), so I need a man’s emotional support, loyalty, and understanding a hell of a lot more than I need his financial support.
I was raised to never count on a man to support me, so I’ve known all my life that I would be paying my own way in life. I consider this a fortunate thing, since it frees me to judge men based on the quality of their personality and character rather than their bank accounts.
Obviously I don’t want to sound like I’m bashing rich or well-educated men, but honestly, many of the most ambitious men that I’ve encountered were rather arrogant, tightly wound "Type A"s with little humor/personality, and/or workaholics. None of that appeals to me, so I’d vastly prefer the company of a kind, funny, easygoing, down-to-earth man with a small bank account. I’d rather be with a guy whose biggest ambition is to be the greatest husband/father in the world than the greatest neurosurgeon or CEO.
Now I’ll admit that, yes, a man’s money and education level does matter to a lot of other women, just as a lot of guys refuse to date fat women or older women. However, remember that you only have to meet ONE woman who wants what you have to offer. Dating is, as they say, a “numbers game”. You usually have to go through a lot of wrong people before finally bumping into the right one.
Believe me, I know how discouraging it is to try to meet/date people and have it fall flat…but I figure meeting 99 incompatible people is worth it if the 100th person turns out to be the right one.
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### Author:  [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/39 "2006-08-08T22:20:40Z")
> [@burundi](#):
>
> This is so well-put. And it doesn’t have to ambition for material wealth. My husband has gone back to school to become an elementary school teacher. He plans to gets his MA and National Board Certification as soon as possible. That will never make us rich, but I’m so proud that he’s got goals and a plan and the drive to be the best teacher he can be. If you don’t have ambition of some kind, you’re a schlub. And who wants to date a schlub?
Thank you, **burundi** , for understanding what I was trying to say. A man doesn’t need letters after his name, or a big car or a big bank account, to be successful. A man who can take care of himself, hold down friendships and a relationship, who is a good and kind person, who is secure in himself and happy with his life, this is someone who has found _success_. This is what women want – or, at least, good women, and isn’t that what you’re looking for? (or a good man, I suppose, depending on your personal tastes).
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### Author:  [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)
#### Post date: [August 8, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facing-middle-age-with-no-degree-no-wife-the-growing-cohort-of-unmarriageable-men/367848/40 "2006-08-08T22:52:11Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#):
>
> I want to know what caused the tide to turn with regard to men getting educations. Did the parents pass them over and give all the college money to the daughters? I just don’t get how a male dominated society suddenly curled up and quit supporting the male education. Does anyone have any insight to this?
There was a recent feature article in the New York Times magazine about this phenomenon (I think it was from 2-3 weeks ago). I can’t remember the exact detail but basically, a least some of the difference comes from low-income areas – low income Afican-American women, for example are MUCH more likely to achieve a college degree than low-income Amfrican American men.
Also, if I am recalling this correctly women of all socio-economic levels are better students than men throughout high school and college years. In other words, more women than men end up qualified to go to college and receive merit-based aid.
Maybe someone can point me towards the article?
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