# Fact: SSM is out, SS Civil Unions are in. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034 "2014-05-09T06:19:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/81 "2014-05-12T14:14:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Can you describe specifically what the issue is with separate but equal? Keeping in mind that they are actually, legally equal - they are simply called something different by some people. > > Regards, > Shodan If, for example, I were named **stpauler**. Everyone on the message board calls me stpauler. I am known as **stpauler**. Except the administration decides to call me “ **fuckface** ” instead. They still allow me to post and do all of the things I would normally do, except when they refer to me publicly, they call me **fuckface**. Is that OK? I mean, I still get to participate, but they just insist on calling me something different because, well, tradition or something, it’s not really clear. Now, swap stpauler for your name. Are you OK with that marginalization? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/82 "2014-05-12T14:24:02Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Can you describe specifically what the issue is with separate but equal? Keeping in mind that they are actually, legally equal - they are simply called something different by some people. > > Regards, > Shodan The seats at the rear of the bus are separate, but equal. Why did Rosa Parks make such a fuss? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/83 "2014-05-12T14:31:42Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > If, for example, I were named **stpauler**. Everyone on the message board calls me stpauler. I am known as **stpauler**. Except the administration decides to call me “ **fuckface** ” instead. They still allow me to post and do all of the things I would normally do, except when they refer to me publicly, they call me **fuckface**. Is that OK? Can you describe what the issue would be with separate but equal in a situation where they are actually equal? [QUOTE=Mangetout] The seats at the rear of the bus are separate, but equal. Why did Rosa Parks make such a fuss? [/QUOTE] Because they were not equal. It might make a better analogy if they changed the system so that anyone could sit anywhere they wanted on the bus, but for whites, they were called “seats on the bus” but for blacks they were called “bus seats”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/84 "2014-05-12T14:35:36Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Can you describe what the issue would be with separate but equal in a situation where they are actually equal? Everything is equal in my example. EXCEPT for the name. One is used to marginalize or disparage. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/85 "2014-05-12T14:42:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Can you describe what the issue would be with separate but equal in a situation where they are actually equal? But the OP does not propose that both groups are equal. The proposal is that one group gets the denigrating label of “_Not Worthy Of Marriage_” It is an official, legally supported slur. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/86 "2014-05-12T14:45:56Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The seats at the rear of the bus are separate, but equal. Why did Rosa Parks make such a fuss? Two water fountains means shorter lines for everybody! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/87 "2014-05-12T14:51:43Z")
“Civil Union” sounds so government contracty to me. What if we change it to “Marriage Plus!” or “Marriage Royale!” or “Real Marriage”? It’s jut a name, after all, and those that are only “married” will still get the same benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/88 "2014-05-12T15:15:14Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Everything is equal in my example. EXCEPT for the name. One is used to marginalize or disparage. Do you believe that Colorado and France are doing the equivalent of calling gay peoploe “fuckface” by legalizing civil unions? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/89 "2014-05-12T15:29:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you believe that Colorado and France are doing the equivalent of calling gay peoploe “fuckface” by legalizing civil unions? > > Regards, > Shodan Doesn’t France call everyone fuckface? As for Colorado.[Yes:](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.glad.org%2Fuploads%2Fdocs%2Fpublications%2Fcu-vs-marriage.pdf&ei=1edwU4_2H9WxyASrv4CgCQ&usg=AFQjCNF6k4jwVdurXE3scS4KOo7ijVbxnQ) > [@](#): > > **What are some of the limitations of civil unions?** > Civil unions are different from marriage, and that difference has wide-ranging implications that make the two institutions unequal. Here is a quick look at some of the most significant differences: > > Portability: > Marriages are respected state to state for all purposes, but questions remain about how civil unions will be treated in other states since very few states have civil unions. > > Ending a Civil Union: > If you are married, you can get divorced in any state in which you are a resident, provided that state recognizes the marriages of same-sex couples. But if states continue to disrespect civil unions, there is no way to end the relationship other than by establishing residency in a state that respects the civil union. > > Federal Benefits: > According to a 1997 GAO report, civil marriage brings with it at least 1,138 legal protections and responsibilities from the federal government, including the right to take leave from work to care for a family member, the right to sponsor a spouse for immigration purposes, and Social Security survivor benefits that can make a difference between old age in poverty and old age in security. Civil unions bring few (if any) of these critical legal protections. > > Taxes & Public Benefits for the Family: > Because the federal government does not respect civil unions, a couple with a civil union will be in a kind of limbo with regard to governmental functions performed by both state and federal governments, such as taxation, pension protections, provision of insurance for families, and means-tested programs like Medicaid. Even when states try to provide legal protections, they may be foreclosed from doing so in joint federal/state programs. > > Filling out forms: > Every day, we fill out forms that ask us whether we are married or single. People joined in a civil union don’t fit into either category. People with civil unions should be able to identify themselves as a single family unit, but misrepresenting oneself on official documents can be considered fraud and carries potential serious criminal penalties. > > Separate & Unequal – Second-Class Status: > Even if there were no substantive differences in the way the law treated marriages and civil unions, the fact that a civil union remains a separate status just for gay people represents real and powerful inequality. We’ve been down this road before in this country and should not kid ourselves that a separate > institution just for gay people is a just solution here either. Our constitution requires legal equality for all. Including gay and lesbian couples within existing marriage laws is the fairest and simplest thing to do. [Colorado civil unions are not recognized by the federal government.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Colorado) So yeah, it’s fuckface. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/90 "2014-05-12T15:32:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you believe that Colorado and France are doing the equivalent of calling gay peoploe “fuckface” by legalizing civil unions? It took me 23 seconds to find out that same sex couples can get married in France. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/91 "2014-05-12T15:40:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It took me 23 seconds to find out that same sex couples can get married in France. Edited to add: [France _also_ has Civil Unions](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_unions_in_France), but it also is available to straights and same sex couples, and it offers less than marriage: > [@](#): > > In France, a civil solidarity pact (French: pacte civil de solidarité), commonly known as a PACS (pronounced: [paks]), is a form of civil union between two adults (same-sex or opposite-sex) for organising their joint life. It brings rights and responsibilities, but less so than marriage. The PACS was voted by the French Parliament in November 1999. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/92 "2014-05-12T15:43:35Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > As for Colorado.[Yes:](http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.glad.org%2Fuploads%2Fdocs%2Fpublications%2Fcu-vs-marriage.pdf&ei=1edwU4_2H9WxyASrv4CgCQ&usg=AFQjCNF6k4jwVdurXE3scS4KOo7ijVbxnQ) > > [Colorado civil unions are not recognized by the federal government.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Colorado) > So yeah, it’s fuckface. OK, fair enough - how about a situation in which they are equal in every way? What are the drawbacks of separate but equal in that situation? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/93 "2014-05-12T15:50:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, fair enough - how about a situation in which they are equal in every way? What are the drawbacks of separate but equal in that situation? > > Regards, > Shodan Can you give us a real-life example? If not, then same problem exists that has been pointed out many times already-That “separate but equal” is a way for those who think they are superior to label those they feel are inferior. I don’t know why this message isn’t getting through to you, as often as it has been put forth already. edited to add: Can you give us a single reason _for_ this proposal that doesn’t support this idea? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/94 "2014-05-12T15:51:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, fair enough - how about a situation in which they are equal in every way? What are the drawbacks of separate but equal in that situation? > > Regards, > Shodan **tom** had [a pretty good post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17360542&postcount=799) about it in the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/95 "2014-05-12T15:59:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OK, fair enough - how about a situation in which they are equal in every way? What are the drawbacks of separate but equal in that situation? > > Regards, > Shodan States and localities could then pass laws that affect marriages and civil unions differently. If they’re both “marriage”, legally, then it would be much more difficult for local governments to restrict their rights. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/96 "2014-05-12T16:04:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > States and localities could then pass laws that affect marriages and civil unions differently. If they’re both “marriage”, legally, then it would be much more difficult for local governments to restrict their rights. I wouldn’t trust the same majority that decided that same sex couples weren’t worthy of being married to guard the rights of those they look down on. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/97 "2014-05-12T16:06:55Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > **tom** had [a pretty good post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17360542&postcount=799) about it in the other thread. That doesn’t strike me as a good example - he simply resists the hypothetical and says it is inevitable that they would be unequal. I don’t believe it is inevitable, but, like many of his arguments, it is a slippery slope argument and therefore cannot really be debated. [QUOTE=Czarcasm] That “separate but equal” is a way for those who think they are superior to label those they feel are inferior. [/QUOTE] I don’t see how labelling it a civil union labels someone as inferior, especialy since no one seems to be able to describe any way in which it is inferior. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/98 "2014-05-12T16:12:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > States and localities could then pass laws that affect marriages and civil unions differently. Calling it marriage doesn’t seem to [have stopped the UK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom). I don’t see how what it is called is going to stop that kind of thing. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/99 "2014-05-12T16:13:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That doesn’t strike me as a good example - he simply resists the hypothetical and says it is inevitable that they would be unequal. I don’t believe it is inevitable, but, like many of his arguments, it is a slippery slope argument and therefore cannot really be debated. > I don’t see how labelling it a civil union labels someone as inferior, especialy since no one seems to be able to describe any way in which it is inferior. _The **only** reason for it is to label those that can’t be married as “inferior”._ The reason for the label is to belittle. What is so fucking hard to understand here?? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/100 "2014-05-12T16:16:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Calling it marriage doesn’t seem to [have stopped the UK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom). I don’t see how what it is called is going to stop that kind of thing. > > Regards, > Shodan Oh it’s not the only thing. Other protections will probably be needed on a federal level. But it makes it harder – not to mention more transparently intended to hurt gay people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034.md?page=6)