# Fact: SSM is out, SS Civil Unions are in. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 9, 2014, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034 "2014-05-09T06:19:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/161 "2014-05-12T21:20:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No, that’s a poorer analogy. Why isn’t it it simply: > > Air Force::Navy > Marriage::Civil Union > > ? I thought that “Civil Unions” were supposed to be absolutely equal to "Marriage"in everything but name? Is it now supposed to be as different as the U.S.A.F. and the U.S.N. obviously are? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/162 "2014-05-12T21:21:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s a very simple question. One that you should be able to answer very easily I would think. If you disagree, what do you find difficult about it? Can anyone else translate this…analogy??..for me? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/163 "2014-05-12T21:21:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now if you were Sailor and felt disparaged by the existence of another group called sailors, then the problem seems to lie with some insecurity you have. No? I’m kind of amazed at how every single time you try to create an analogy explaining why marriage should be reserved for heterosexuals, you somehow manage to come up with one that explains why it shouldn’t be. This is quite possibly the best example ever, maybe even more so than your driver’s license analogy. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/164 "2014-05-12T21:24:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m kind of amazed at how every single time you try to create an analogy explaining why marriage should be reserved for heterosexuals, you somehow manage to come up with one that explains why it shouldn’t be. > > This is quite possibly the best example ever, maybe even more so than your driver’s license analogy. He’s really really good at arguing for SSM. He may be the best I’ve ever seen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/165 "2014-05-12T21:25:11Z")
Also, I’ve never met a member of any branch of the armed service who was not absolutely adamant that every other branch was inherently inferior to their own. YMMV. And while I’m at it, I’m not the biggest military trivia guy, but isn’t the entire point of the Army Rangers that they’re significantly better than the regular army guys? Really, the number of ways **magellan** ’s new analogy undercuts his own argument is kind of amazing. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/166 "2014-05-12T21:25:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I thought that “Civil Unions” were supposed to be absolutely equal to "Marriage"in everything but name? Is it now supposed to be as different as the U.S.A.F. and the U.S.N. obviously are? It’s an analogy to show how two terms can apply to two distinct groups without either group being disparaged. They both are to the same to degree patriots. They both serve and protect our country with equal importance. Two terms, two distinct groups that are a subset of the larger group American Military Servicemen. No disparagement. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/167 "2014-05-12T21:26:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can anyone else translate this…analogy??..for me? Why not just answer the VERY simple question? You really need help to communicate what YOU think? :rolleyes: Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/168 "2014-05-12T21:29:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s an analogy to show how two terms can apply to two distinct groups without either group being disparaged. They both are to the same to degree patriots. They both serve and protect our country with equal importance. > > Two terms, two distinct groups that are a subset of the larger group American Military Servicemen. No disparagement. You have just moved into the top three of my _Top Ten List Of Posters Most Likely To Secretly Be Stephen Colbert_. The stage is all yours, dude. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/169 "2014-05-12T21:40:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Also, I’ve never met a member of any branch of the armed service who was not absolutely adamant that every other branch was inherently inferior to their own. YMMV. But that’s my point. If one thinks that gays truly are equal, why not just proudly own your own term for marriage. Those in the Army do it. Those in the Navy do it. This in the Air Force do it. Those in the Marines do it. The only reason one of them would not proudly state, I am a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_, is if he felt that his particular branch was inferior. And that would fly in the face of the point you just made. > [@Miller](#): > > And while I’m at it, I’m not the biggest military trivia guy, but isn’t the entire point of the Army Rangers that they’re significantly better than the regular army guys? This was for a subtler point: Soldiers and Rangers are respectful of what the other does. The Rangers have qualifications that distinguish them from regular soldiers. The soldiers I know don’t feel disparaged by that. They simply have admiration for them. Some never had the opportunity to go to Ranger school. Some flunked out. But it is a factual matter that Rangers have additional qualifications. The analogy here is that if you take the larger pool to be “couples that are in love and want to publicly commit to each other”, heterosexuals have the additional qualification of being representative of the union needed top bring children into the world. The fact that the extra qualification for the Ranger is earned and the that of the couple is anatomy is incidental. > [@Miller](#): > > Really, the number of ways **magellan** ’s new analogy undercuts his own argument is kind of amazing. Yeah. And when his analogies are extended to do things beyond the point being made in the analogy, or or flatly restated and/or misinterpreted, they really, really work against his point! :eek: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/170 "2014-05-12T21:40:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s an analogy to show how two terms can apply to two distinct groups without either group being disparaged. They both are to the same to degree patriots. They both serve and protect our country with equal importance. > > Two terms, two distinct groups that are a subset of the larger group American Military Servicemen. No disparagement. Man, this is one of the most tortured analogies I’ve ever seen. What’s the point of all of this handwavage? Good grief, why not use the same term for the same exact institution? It’s marriage…the legal and social contract that two PEOPLE have with society, to form a union between them. The only reason to attempt to do the whole equal but separate thing is to at some level discriminate between straight marriage and gay marriage and erect barriers. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/171 "2014-05-12T21:42:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You have just moved into the top three of my _Top Ten List Of Posters Most Likely To Secretly Be Stephen Colbert_. The stage is all yours, dude. Well, you’ve demonstrated you can indeed type. You’ve demonstrated that you have interest in the subject. You have demonstrated that you are interested enough in what I have to say to ask me questions—repeatedly. Now how about you demonstrate that you answer the oh-so-simple question I asked you. Or not. In fact, that cloud does indeed have a silver lining. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/172 "2014-05-12T21:42:42Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Man, this is one of the most tortured analogies I’ve ever seen. Go to the “Is the Gay Marriage Debate Over?” thread and search for the word “juice.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/173 "2014-05-12T21:45:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, you’ve demonstrated you can indeed type. You’ve demonstrated that you have interest in the subject. You have demonstrated that you are interested enough in what I have to say to ask me questions—repeatedly. > > Now how about you demonstrate that you answer the oh-so-simple question I asked you. > > Or not. In fact, that cloud does indeed have a silver lining. I don’t even understand the question, or how it applies to this situation. Honestly, I thought this was some sort of “baffle them with bullshit” ploy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/174 "2014-05-12T21:46:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Go to the “Is the Gay Marriage Debate Over?” thread and search for the word “juice.” :eek: Holy crap…just when you think you’ve seen it all. I knew there was a reason I wasn’t subscribed to that thread! ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/175 "2014-05-12T21:46:51Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Man, this is one of the most tortured analogies I’ve ever seen. What’s the point of all of this handwavage? Talk about hand-waving! If you think the analogy does a poor job of explaining the point I was making, show how and where. > [@XT](#): > > The only reason to attempt to do the whole equal but separate thing is to at some level discriminate between straight marriage and gay marriage and erect barriers. Again with the misunderstanding of separate but equal. I’ve explained it ad infinitum. In fact, in the other thread, someone else—from your side of the debate—restated it accurately. Yet… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/176 "2014-05-12T21:49:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t even understand the question, or how it applies to this situation. Honestly, I thought this was some sort of “baffle them with bullshit” ploy. Perhaps my omitting a word made it appear more confusing that it is. Here is the original question: > [@](#): > > In your mind, “homosexuality” inferior to “heterosexuality”? And the corrected version: > [@](#): > > In your mind, is “homosexuality” inferior to “heterosexuality”? Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/177 "2014-05-12T21:51:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Prescience. 🙂 > > I’ve always stated that this is my fear, and one that I think is reasonable. And most important, one that we needn’t worry about since there is another mechanism by which SS couples could enjoy all the legal benefits and privileges of marriage. I see it as the best of both worlds. You are by no means forced to agree with me. Nor me with you. > > You know, I can imagine us having a debate back in 1960 or so about the pros and cons of welfare. And maybe one of us would have gone against the liberal grain and said that it was a bad idea because of the long term effects. That it would make people expect that the government was a choice in lieu of work. That it might break up families, etc., etc. And no doubt someone would have said, “But you can’t PROVE that will happen. So how can you be so cold and callous as to not want to help people who need it?” > > And then we’d let forty years go by and who would have been right? The ones arguing for welfare. That’s a whole different thread, however, and it makes no sense to bring it up in this one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/178 "2014-05-12T21:53:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Perhaps my omitting a word made it appear more confusing that it is. Here is the original question: > > And the corrected version: > > Hope that helps. In much the same way that “Why _is_ a duck?” is less confusing than “Why a duck?”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/179 "2014-05-12T21:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Talk about hand-waving! If you think the analogy does a poor job of explaining the point I was making, show how and where. [/QUOTE] Gods…where to even start. First off, the role that the various branches of the military serves are much more different than the role that two people serve in having a social contract with society that we call ‘marriage’. Basically, whether you are a gay or straight couple being married, the essential role from societies perspective is exactly the same, which is a contract for where that couple fits in and the expectations on that couple by society and, conversely, from society towards that couple. My question to you would be…what’s the point? Why do you so need to have a different name for the exact same thing? The obvious answer, to me, is that it’s a way to discriminate and segregate and underscore a differentiation. But why don’t you answer for yourself, instead of trying to make up tortured analogies? Just a straight up answer. > [@](#): > > Again with the misunderstanding of separate but equal. I’ve explained it ad infinitum. In fact, in the other thread, someone else—from your side of the debate—restated it accurately. Yet… Explain it here then, without trying to use tortured analogies. I don’t believe that I am the one failing to understand exactly what equal but separate means, what it was used for in the past, or what this attempt to do the same thing will do now (for a little while, because eventually ‘your’ side is GOING to lose this one…and, as I said, 20 years from now it’s going to be ‘your’ side that’s going to look like those southern assholes trying to keep the young black students from going to school and having to have the Nation Guard escort them in through a mob of angry white folks shaking their fists at them. That’s what being on the wrong side of history is going to get you). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2014, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034/180 "2014-05-12T21:59:07Z")
> [@XT](#): > > and, as I said, 20 years from now it’s going to be ‘your’ side that’s going to look like those southern assholes trying to keep the young black students from going to school and having to have the Nation Guard escort them in through a mob of angry white folks shaking their fists at them. That’s what being on the wrong side of history is going to get you). 20 years from now? He should be so lucky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fact-ssm-is-out-ss-civil-unions-are-in/688034.md?page=10)