# FactCheck.Org on Sarah Palin **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2008, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748 "2008-09-09T06:18:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/101 "2008-09-12T18:55:16Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > [http://www.newsweek.com/id/158265/output/print](http://www.newsweek.com/id/158265/output/print) > > Next… “less than Honest” why can’t factcheck call it what it is…a lie! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/102 "2008-09-12T19:16:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There is no doubt the Mayor had hire/fire control over that job. For whatever reason thta is how they did that there. > > At the end of the day though Emmons was the one Palin asked about banning books, more than once. Presumably Emmons was asked, and not one of the other librarians, because Emmons controlled that aspect of running the library. Call her Grand Poobah for all it matters. She was the librarian in charge of selecting books making it relevant that Palin asked her rather than just some random conversation with someone who had zero influence on the books. Yes, I know and also that position is allowed to actively campaign. That’s weird to me. If during the last San Jose mayorial eclection (for example) I had campaigned openly for our current Mayors oppeent, I’d expect to be fired- that’s becuase I am a civil servant, and my political activity is limited by law. Should I have been an appointed position such as the Mayor’s Cheif of Staff, then I’d also expect to be let go, since I was appointed by the previous Mayor. So the whole thing in that dinky pissant town is weird. And that’s why the distinction from Librarian (almost always a Civil Servant) and a Dept head (political appointee) is critical. Firing a Librarian is hard to do- they are a Civil Servant after all. But they would be barred from actively campaigning for a partisan political election. OTOH, a dept head could campaign, but also serves at the will of the Cheif Executive. “Firing the Librarian” is a more loaded statement. Which is exactly why they are calling Emmons 'the Librarian" instead of “Library Director”. It makes it sound worse. You are making the supposition that Emmons had any direct control over choice of books. Facts not in evidence. It appears to me that Emmons had control over the person who had direct control. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/103 "2008-09-12T19:21:23Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > I was the President of the Library Board in a town much larger than Wasilla. We had a library director who was also the head of museums. She was the head librarian, worked 40+ hours a week in the library, her office was inthe library and she made all the executive decisions for the library. > > I can’t honestly believe that you think a town of 7,000 actually has a ful time executive position overseeing the library and museums. Maybe I should say that it does - it’s called “Mayor”. But it does, in Wasilla’s case. No one is contesting that Emmon’s position as “Library Director” or “Dep’t head” was a Political appointed postion that served at the will of the Mayor. Why the fuck they did it that way is beyond me. It was not a Civil Service position. I do not know if it was “full time”. I’ll bet a nickel that in your town, the Librarian was a Civil Servant, not a political appointee. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/104 "2008-09-12T19:32:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But it does, in Wasilla’s case. No one is contesting that Emmon’s position as “Library Director” or “Dep’t head” was a Political appointed postion that served at the will of the Mayor. Why the fuck they did it that way is beyond me. It was not a Civil Service position. I do not know if it was “full time”. > > I’ll bet a nickel that in your town, the Librarian was a Civil Servant, not a political appointee. I’ll contest it. I haven’t seen one shred of evidence that the Library Director was a political appointment. I strongly suspect, just like the Police and Fire Cheifs, that a panel of knowledgeable people conducted inteviews of qualified applicants and selected one. The City Council and Mayor sign off on the selection, but they do not select the person on their own accord. I’d be shocked if that were the case. That just isn’t the way local government works. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/105 "2008-09-12T19:39:49Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But it does, in Wasilla’s case. No one is contesting that Emmon’s position as “Library Director” or “Dep’t head” was a Political appointed postion that served at the will of the Mayor. Why the fuck they did it that way is beyond me. It was not a Civil Service position. I do not know but given what we can glean from all this I suspect Emmons wore two hats. Library Director and Head Librarian. Or rather Library Director encompassed the Head Librarian position. For such a little town it probably makes sense to have it that way. They are just too small for the extra layers of bureaucracy larger cities enjoy. Likewise the person responsible for hiring/firing that position is the mayor. Again, in such a small town, who else would you think had that responsibility? There just really isn’t anyone else short of making it a committee matter in the city council which seems an even more awful idea. My guess is this worked fine in such a little town as generally they do not see a mayor turn grasping dictator in the fashion Palin did. As for campaigning I do not know the laws restricting that. Are you saying that as an individual you cannot campaign on behalf of a candidate because you are a civil servant? I can understand being restricted from doing it in the guise of your civil servant role but as a citizen that sounds overly restrictive. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/106 "2008-09-12T19:59:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I didn’t say Emmons wasn’t \*a \*librarian. She may well have been and there’s some evidence she had a MLS degree. But at the time she was serving as a political appointee, a dept head. Not as a civil servant Librarian. True, her dept included the library, but it also included the museum. Should we call her the Curator? Curator/Librarian? Her title was dep’t head, not Librarian. The connnotation of Librarian is a civil service professional, not a political appointee dept head. This is exactly why Palin’s foes use the term “the librarian” to refer to Emmons, and not “Ms Emmons” or “Head of the Library and Museum Departments”. “Librarian” just sounds so more innocent than “Head of the Library and Museum Departments”. > > The connotations of words are as important as their literal meaning. Give it up, bubby; trying to argue that Ms. Emmons was some kind of political hack appointment is [just making you look silly:](http://news.bostonherald.com/news/2008/view.bg?articleid=1117009&srvc=2008campaign&position=15) > [@](#): > > Emmons had been city librarian for seven years and was well liked. > > [snip] > > Emmons was president of the Alaska Library Association at the time. Please note that the cite is to the Boston Herald, a decidedly rightwards-leaning newspaper, so cries of liberal bias in their reporting are hogwash. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/107 "2008-09-12T21:10:38Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > As for campaigning I do not know the laws restricting that. Are you saying that as an individual you cannot campaign on behalf of a candidate because you are a civil servant? I can understand being restricted from doing it in the guise of your civil servant role but as a citizen that sounds overly restrictive. You can vote for whomever you want, a put a bumper sticker on your car and a sign on your lawn. But using your position or title will get your fired. So if I said: “As DrDeth, assistant Coroner,😛 I support and endorse candidate xxxxx” that would get me fired. ETF : “hack”? I make no such claim, but as for “political appointment” certainly. That is exactly why she (as a dept head) could be fired, and served at the pelasure of the Mayor. To use your cite: “Four days before the exchange at the City Council, Emmons got a letter from Palin asking for her resignation. Similar letters went to police chief Irl Stambaugh, public works director Jack Felton and finance director Duane Dvorak. John Cooper, a fifth director, resigned after Palin eliminated his job overseeing the city museum. Palin told the Daily News back then the letters were just a test of loyalty as she took on the mayor’s job, which she’d won from three-term mayor John Stein in a hard-fought election. Stein had hired many of the department heads. Both Emmons and Stambaugh had publicly supported him against Palin.” [http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/510219.html](http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/510219.html) “Now he’s talking to an attorney. While both Stambaugh and Emmons serve at the mayor’s pleasure, Stambaugh said he has a contract that prohibits the city from firing him without cause.” Read that again- “… **Emmons serve at the mayor’s pleasure** …”. That is the definition of a political appointee, as opposed to a civil servant. Also a civil servant would be barred from publicly supporting a mayorial candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/108 "2008-09-12T21:48:56Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > She fired everyone. Got that- _everyone_, all at the same time with the same letter. Personally, I’d make a distinction, for accuracy, between (1) firing everyone and (2) asking for a letter of resignation from each. One action is definitive, the other, merely intimindating. Either way, it indicates a heavy-handed method of governing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/109 "2008-09-12T21:50:09Z")
**DrDeth** You seem intent on advancing the notion that the firing was legal, hence legitimate. If I had five bucks for everything I’d witnessed that was reprehensible and perfecly legal simultaneously, it would be hookers and blow for the **ol’ luc** , from now till dirt nap time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/110 "2008-09-12T22:11:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **DrDeth** > > You seem intent on advancing the notion that the firing was legal, hence legitimate. If I had five bucks for everything I’d witnessed that was reprehensible and perfecly legal simultaneously, it would be hookers and blow for the **ol’ luc** , from now till dirt nap time. It was legal, no doubt. But it could also well have been an ill-advised power grab by a newb Politico. In fact, I’d say that was better than an even bet. EddyTeddyFreddy seems to be advancing the idea that Emmons was well qualified, thus not a political appointee. Let’s look at Michael Mukasey, the current AG. wiki “\*Mukasey also served for 18 years as a judge of the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, six of those years as Chief Judge. He has received several awards, most notably the Learned Hand Medal[6] of the Federal Bar Council.” \* So certainly Mukasey is well _qualified_ to be AG. That doesn’t mean that Mukasey wasn’t a political appointee, nor that Pres. Obama won’t kick Mukasey’s happy ass out of office as soon as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2008, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/111 "2008-09-12T22:22:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > EddyTeddyFreddy seems to be advancing the idea that Emmons was well qualified, thus not a political appointee. A political appointee is someone who is appointed to a position by a politician. You have not demonstrated that this is the case with the librarian. I’d wager that she wasn’t. If she was, it would be an incredible departure from the normal way things are done. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/112 "2008-09-13T00:38:07Z")
> [@Lamar\_Mundane](#): > > A political appointee is someone who is appointed to a position by a politician. You have not demonstrated that this is the case with the librarian. I’d wager that she wasn’t. If she was, it would be an incredible departure from the normal way things are done. In fact she was appointed by the Mayor before Palin, the one Palin beat in that election. “Stein had hired many of the department heads”. Whether or not it would be an incredible departure from the normal way things are done, it’s the way things were done in Wasilla. Haven’t you read any of the cites or posts? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2008, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748/113 "2008-09-13T02:15:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I dunno. There was a MLS Civil Servant “Librarian” and several assistants under Emmons dept. Not to mention museum employees, etc. Note that Emmons was actively campaigning for Emmons’ opponent in the election. > > She fired everyone. Got that- _everyone_, all at the same time with the same letter. She also “fired” them on the day she took office, before she had the continued discussions with Emmons about censorship. Did she fire the Police Cheif over censorship? Did she fire the Museum Dept head over censorship? She issued a mass letter to _all dept heads_. It could not have anything to do with censorship. Most of the discussions about censorship came after the mass firing. > > Emmons did make several statements at that time ot the local paper. In none of them do she even hint her firing had anything to do with censorship. True, since the Kilkenny swiftboating came out, Emmons has made no public statements. Which proves nothing. To be clear , I’m not saying I’m sure about what happened, when and how. The larger issue is the consideration of book banning. > [@](#): > > Palin did not have time to even know about a “backlash” as the article reporting the incident didn’t even get printed until after Palin met with Emmons (which was the next day after the letters went out). It was clearly stated in the period article that Emmons was rehired after she agreed to the dept merge. Note that the article that generated the backlash is the article that reported that Palin met withh Emmons and rehired her. Thus, Emmons “rehiring” could not have been due to any backlash. Your conclusion doesn’t necessarily follow the evidence. Since it’s a small town and there was outrage the night of the letters and the next morning, the rehiring _may_ have been because of that outrage. It’s more likely that Palin knew about it. Either way, those details are not the relevant ones. > [@](#): > > But Emmon’s firing had nothing to do with censorship- only Kilkenny makes that claim. Emmons was rehired becuase she agreed to merge the library and museum depts. It’s right there in the article. Yes that’s what was reported to the paper, since Emmon’s wasn’t commenting on the book banning request. > [@](#): > > Kilkennys letter was swiftboating becuase she lied her ass off. How about something more substantial than just your opinion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factcheck-org-on-sarah-palin/462748.md?page=5)