# Facts, beliefs, and opinions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142 "2011-02-12T17:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/21 "2011-02-12T19:04:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s really not much controversy around a lot of the facts involved: > > -Mubarak ruled Egypt for decades… I don’t know if we would want to label it “controversy,” but in as much the military is filling in the vacuum of titular rule in Egypt, we might easily say that Mubarak’s rule effectively hasn’t ended yet. In other words, what does it mean to “rule” a country (such as Egypt, in this case). I think this is one of the greatest values of debate: the introduction of new ways of perceiving things, and the questioning of assumptions. (And for those who like to toss around the word “fact”–especially those in the sciences–I’d like to recommend a great book apropos of this discussion: [Laboratory Life: The Social Construction of Scientific Facts](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratory_Life).) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/22 "2011-02-12T19:06:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed, **and those are opinions**. They have no truth value to them. > > If a poster says, “See’s Candies are the healthiest candy out there,” or, “Reagan’s oratory won the Cold War,” those are beliefs. > > The former require no justification, nor are they especially interesting statements. They might do well in IMHO, as part of a poll. > > The latter statements are beliefs that have controversial truth value. If you can’t back them up, why bother posting them? Because someone just wants to share a particular opinion which they realize is nothing more than an opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/23 "2011-02-12T19:08:40Z")
Well that’s _your_ opinion that opinions have to place in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/24 "2011-02-12T19:16:13Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I don’t know if we would want to label it “controversy,” but in as much the military is filling in the vacuum of titular rule in Egypt, we might easily say that Mubarak’s rule effectively hasn’t ended yet. Sure, no disagreement: at the point where there’s controversy is where one should either define one’s terms or introduce facts to support one’s claims. > [@These Are My Own Pants](#): > > ``` > Well that's your opinion that opinions have to place in Great Debates. > > ``` Sigh. No, that’s not my opinion. That’s not what I said. That has no more to do with what I wrote than anything **Diogenes** wrote. Please reread the OP, paying attention to the phrase I underlined in my response to **Diogenes**. > [@Magellan](#): > > Because someone just wants to share a particular opinion which they realize is nothing more than an opinion? No. Just because someone wants to claim that a belief is an opinion and thereby make the belief immune from criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/25 "2011-02-12T19:18:38Z")
I’m not a frequent Great Debates poster but I do enjoy reading the mostly fruitless back and forth. The thing about facts, actual facts, is that they are rarely found. We don’t get facts in GD, what we get are ‘cites’. A cite is a link to yet another opinion, that will be disputed with different cites of other points of view or opinions. Some posters appear to have limitless files containing links that support their pet issues. Cites from Wikipedia are problematic because they are also often opinion biased. Editorial opinions are not facts. Cites of some authority in the subject field are not facts. Facts are things that both sides should be able to agree upon before any debate begins. And that isn’t going to happen. Great Debates is a usually polite war of opinion. Standing upon the back of a giant opinion turtle, and it’s opinions all the way down. I’ll tell you what would be really interesting. Define the subject and agree upon the sources of the facts to be used in the arguement. Pre-agreement on the facts to be used, then debate away. That is a fantasy. The reality is that the facts offered are opinion, beliefs are opinion, and all GD ends up being is a contest between a few posters who haven’t given up on the subject after 3 or 4 pages. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/26 "2011-02-12T19:18:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Sigh. No, that’s not my opinion. That’s not what I said. That has no more to do with what I wrote than anything **Diogenes** wrote. Please reread the OP, paying attention to the phrase I underlined in my response to **Diogenes**. Well that’s your opinion that opinions have not place in GD is not your opinion, my opinion is that it is your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/27 "2011-02-12T19:32:54Z")
In other words, I seem to agree with the opinion of **Diogenes the Cynic**. This always gives me funny feeling. And I don’t mean funny “ha ha”, I mean funny “strange”. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/28 "2011-02-12T19:45:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No. Just because someone wants to claim that a belief is an opinion and thereby make the belief immune from criticism. I’ll think about accepting your opinion on that. Okay. Thought about it. My opinion is that you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/29 "2011-02-12T19:53:12Z")
I feel that the OP is wrong - therefore, he is. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/30 "2011-02-12T20:15:02Z")
You guys, those jokes aren’t funny, and have nothing to do with what the OP said. Do you just enjoy seeming ignorant? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/31 "2011-02-12T20:34:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Because we post here for entertainiment and flow of ideas, not anal, pedantic, humorless formal debates. Opinions get challenged all the time. I don’t see any value in adding a bunch of “opinion cops” to every discussion, blowing a whistle and calling the mods everytime somebody posts anything remotely subjective. Good thing that’s not what the OP said. It’s quite clear that he saying that, if you do what the guy did in the other thread, then you will look like an idiot. You can’t just pop into Great Debates and say “You can’t argue with me. It’s just my opinion” and not be thought of as an idiot. All the OP was trying to do was explain why, by classifying statements into three types. Statements everyone agrees with (facts), statements that require no backing, as they are personal (opinions) and statements you are trying to convince other people to agree with (beliefs). The ones that are actually useful in GD are facts and beliefs. Opinions, while unavoidable in posts, should not be the focus–exactly the way GD is already set up. So if you guys are arguing against the OP, you’re arguing with the concept of GD itself. GD is about trying to convince people of stuff. IMHO is about sharing your opinions without argument. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/32 "2011-02-12T20:49:15Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > I’m not a frequent Great Debates poster but I do enjoy reading the mostly fruitless back and forth. > > The thing about facts, actual facts, is that they are rarely found. I disagree. Did you read my post in which I delineate many of the facts surrounding Mubarak’s history in Egypt? People agree on most of the salient facts. What people disagree on is the proper interpretation of these facts. The best arguments are when people explain how the relevant facts, coupled with rigorous logic, lead to a certain interpretation, lead to particular beliefs. The worst are where people offer nothing except blanket claims of truth. And yes, you people who keep misusing the word opinion are OH SO CLEVER. You’re like, ironic and hip, all at the same time. You win the internet, even. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/33 "2011-02-12T21:16:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I disagree. Did you read my post in which I delineate many of the facts surrounding Mubarak’s history in Egypt? People agree on most of the salient facts. What people disagree on is the proper interpretation of these facts. The best arguments are when people explain how the relevant facts, coupled with rigorous logic, lead to a certain interpretation, lead to particular beliefs. The worst are where people offer nothing except blanket claims of truth. > > And yes, you people who keep misusing the word opinion are OH SO CLEVER. You’re like, ironic and hip, all at the same time. You win the internet, even. I basically agree with the OP, I think it’s a good idea to separate those concepts. There is the problem of the exact boundaries between the three categories and that personal experience may colour how you perceive something. Good idea and good to have in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/34 "2011-02-12T21:46:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, I’m not talking about IMHO. I’m not calling for the lack of opinions. I’m calling for an end to the lame defense of a stupid belief by saying, “But that’s just, like, my opinion, man!” No, it’s not your opinion: it’s a stupid belief, one contradicted by the facts. I’ve never seen anyone do this in GD, so it sounds like a problem that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/35 "2011-02-12T22:25:16Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Resolved: in Great Debates, and indeed in any serious discussion, we should carefully distinguish between these three kinds of statements, as follows. > > Facts are those statements that are verifiably true to a high degree of certainty. It is a fact that Obama is currently president of the United States. It is a fact that the first word in this sentence is “it.” It is a fact that Mubarak left office in Egypt in February 2011. Facts that are not well known benefit from reliable citations in GD, but the well-known facts don’t need cites. [Here’s the relevant definition of fact](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fact), if you need to see what a cite looks like. > > Beliefs are those statements that have a truth value, but whose truth value is debatable. I believe that Obama’s health care policies will decrease the cost of health care overall. I believe that the previous sentence follows all standard rules of English grammar. I believe that Mubarak’s ouster is due primarily to inspiration from events in Tunisia. Beliefs, **especially** the thesis of a GD OP or a response to a GD OP, need to be supported by facts. Again, [I’ll cite the Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief) to support my belief that this definition of belief is the one to use. > > Opinions are those statements that express a value. Obama is a great president. My sentences are well-written, stylish, and sexy. Mubarak’s ouster was a glorious event for the Middle East. Opinions that are unsupported by beliefs or facts are fine, **but they have no place in Great Debates**. They’re much more interesting when supported by beliefs or facts with relevant citations: if you think that Reagan was a nasty little jerk, but you offer no evidence for your opinion, it’s really hard for me to care, whereas if you offer the opinion that he was a nasty little jerk and support that opinion with facts about the Iran-Contra connection, then we’ve got something to talk about. > > [This post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13459475#post13459475) is an example of a problem. True, the OP started in IMHO–but it’s chock full of beliefs (controversial statements with a truth value) with opinions layered on top. In order to discuss it, one **must** discuss the truth value of the beliefs, but when such a discussion starts, the OP insists that they were all just opinions. > > Don’t do that, folks. Keep your opinions separate from your beliefs, and to the extent that you want to have a discussion, support them all with facts. I’m sorry I have upset you. In my world there needs to be a place for opinions without consequence that just might stimulate brighter minds for or against. Just where do you suggest that I may be permitted to express myself without the obligation to joust with your superior intellect. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/36 "2011-02-12T22:27:59Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’m sorry I have upset you. In my world there needs to be a place for opinions without consequence that just might stimulate brighter minds for or against. Just where do you suggest that I may be permitted to express myself without the obligation to joust with your superior intellect. This is probably frustrating for **Lefty**. He isn’t saying that you are not permitted to express an opinion anywhere. He is suggesting that beliefs not be put forth as opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/37 "2011-02-12T22:55:49Z")
Don’t present beliefs as opinions? Is there really such a clear distinction, and how does it disrupt a debate anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/38 "2011-02-12T22:58:56Z")
Since you said opinions given together with support are okay, I’m not sure why your post just doesn’t boil down to: “All statements in GD which someone is likely to disagree with should be supported. Other statements simply don’t belong here.” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/39 "2011-02-12T23:01:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Don’t present beliefs as opinions? Is there really such a clear distinction, and how does it disrupt a debate anyway? You’re a pretty smart guy. **Lefty** presented his case quite clearly in the OP. You should have no trouble finding the relevant parts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142/40 "2011-02-12T23:01:24Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > I’m sorry I have upset you. In my world there needs to be a place for opinions without consequence that just might stimulate brighter minds for or against. Just where do you suggest that I may be permitted to express myself without the obligation to joust with your superior intellect. Facebook? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-beliefs-and-opinions/571142.md?page=3)