# Facts cannot compete with lies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 25, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377 "2011-12-25T20:49:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/21 "2011-12-26T19:31:49Z")
Is that the point? Didn’t he say that the liberals have to start lying and cheating just like the conservatives, or the conservatives would win? Isn’t that another way of saying that democracy doesn’t work, because liars always win? If you really think liars always win, then you are endorsing authoritarian government. It’s not exactly complicated. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/22 "2011-12-26T20:18:43Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Is that the point? Didn’t he say that the liberals have to start lying and cheating just like the conservatives, or the conservatives would win? Isn’t that another way of saying that democracy doesn’t work, because liars always win? > > If you really think liars always win, then you are endorsing authoritarian government. It’s not exactly complicated. Thanks, **Lemur**. That’ pretty much the point I was trying to make. When either side complains about the other having an unfair advantage, it’s almost always a thinly vailed attack on democracy itself. It assumes that people are too stupid to vote for what their best interests are. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/23 "2011-12-26T21:37:44Z")
This seems to be more Great Debates territory, so I’m launching this over there, from IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/24 "2011-12-26T22:02:45Z")
Well, now that we are here I should point out that one side’s mantra is to claim that mainstream media is unfair to them and liberal. What is worse is that in itself is a lie that is entrenched in their narratives. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/25 "2011-12-26T22:18:20Z")
You are actually telling me that Liberal never ever lie? That every word that comes out of a Liberal’s mouth is the God’s honest truth? Do you have cite for that? Mods, I am not trying to argue with the OP, but he is stating that Conservatives constantly lie, while implying that Liberals always tell the truth. Since this is the Straight Dope, I would assume he has some sort of proof for his statement. (Mods, thought I was in GQ, but just noticed that this is GD. So I guess I am arguing with him) Of course the OP might be right. Searching my memory I am having much difficulty recalling any Democrat politician lying, For I am positive that he never had sex with THAT woman. And of course he goes to the standard liberal talking point that Fox News constantly ignores facts and reports facts that don’t exist. Have you any documentation that proves that CNN or any other news organization completely tells the truth all the time every time? A quick Google search under the term “has CNN ever lied about facts” brings up over 23 million hits. Seems like a lot for a news organization that never lies. (Yes, I know that the OP never said that CNN doesn’t lie, but we can assume that since he only mentioned FOX News as lying.) The bottom line is all politicians lie and stretch the truth to bolster their positions. To imply that one side is morally superior to the other is in itself a lie. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/26 "2011-12-26T22:44:06Z")
Meh, I don’t think they are morally superior, but as I pointed out before, it is mostly an accident of history that most positions of the Republicans regarding science based topics are not correct. Eventually one has to look at the evidence to see who is more on the side of the truth, as pointed by the author cited on my early post, Republicans are the ones that take the levels of this immorality to 11. And Google vomits \* will not do, CNN is not seen by liberals as belonging to them or that they can control them like the right does with FOX. - And this is why a Google vomit is not a good way to make a point, among the cites one can check the ones that MediaMatters does about CNN: [http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109260018](http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109260018) > [@](#): > > CNN’s Loesch Dissembles In Order To Attack Obama For Pointing Out Booing At Gay Soldier ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/27 "2011-12-27T00:54:49Z")
“The truth will out.” “He’s a man of his word.” These beliefs haven’t gone anywhere. All my life I’ve heard people say that they voted for, to them, the lesser of two evils. People aren’t so stupid that they buy into anybody’s rhetoric completely. They just weigh which untruths they can live with the best, I think. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/28 "2011-12-27T05:38:13Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > You are actually telling me that Liberal never ever lie? That every word that comes out of a Liberal’s mouth is the God’s honest truth? Do you have cite for that? > > Mods, I am not trying to argue with the OP, but he is stating that Conservatives constantly lie, while implying that Liberals always tell the truth. You are pretty much proving his point; it is a fact that he did not imply “that Liberals always tell the truth”. Nor did the post you responded to say “every word that comes out of a Liberal’s mouth is the God’s honest truth”. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/29 "2011-12-27T06:08:10Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > The bottom line is all politicians lie and stretch the truth to bolster their positions. To imply that one side is morally superior to the other is in itself a lie. Always true? So, you think the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks were morally equivalent? Is 1% lying equivalent to 99% lying? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/30 "2011-12-27T06:11:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Thanks, **Lemur**. That’ pretty much the point I was trying to make. > > When either side complains about the other having an unfair advantage, it’s almost always a thinly vailed attack on democracy itself. It assumes that people are too stupid to vote for what their best interests are. They may be convinced by the liars that they are voting their best interests, but aren’t. For instance, voting for representatives who refuse to raise taxes on the rich while their services get cut. And out of politics, do you deny that people believe in a lot of the religious lies they are told? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/31 "2011-12-27T14:41:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > They may be convinced by the liars that they are voting their best interests, but aren’t. For instance, voting for representatives who refuse to raise taxes on the rich while their services get cut. And out of politics, do you deny that people believe in a lot of the religious lies they are told? People believe all sorts of nonsense. The solution is education, not more lies. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/32 "2011-12-27T14:52:41Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Thanks, **Lemur** When either side complains about the other having an unfair advantage, it’s almost always a thinly vailed attack on democracy itself. It assumes that people are too stupid to vote for what their best interests are. People are indeed too stupid to vote for their own best interests. Witness the trailer trash that came out of the woodwork to rally against a modest health care reform package after they swallowed the whoppers about death panels. Witness the knee jerk response to any discussion of raising the tax rates on the wealthy. The average voter is a moron and if you want him to vote your way, you have to treat him as such and lie your ass off to him. Taking the high road in politics is like bringing a pea shooter to a machine gun fight. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/33 "2011-12-27T14:57:32Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > People are indeed too stupid to vote for their own best interests. Witness the trailer trash that came out of the woodwork to rally against a modest health care reform package after they swallowed the whoppers about death panels. Witness the knee jerk response to any discussion of raising the tax rates on the wealthy. The average voter is a moron and if you want him to vote your way, you have to treat him as such and lie your ass off to him. Taking the high road in politics is like bringing a pea shooter to a machine gun fight. OK. Sketch out for me how you are going to lie your way into convincing them to vote the way you think you they should. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/34 "2011-12-27T14:59:05Z")
My favorite liberal lie currently is the one about the Republicans being obstructionists. Every time a debt/budget situation comes up, the House passes bill after bill and the Senate shoots it down while saying “C’mon, stop being so obstructionist. Pass something we like, already.” Just last week, the Republicans were all ready to go on a payroll tax cut extension, but the Democrats wanted to obstruct an oil pipeline, so we got more gridlock. Dems were blocking a tax cut (read: stimulus) _and_ a shovel-ready job-creating project, and the SDMB _still_ thinks the Pubs are the ones holding things up. > [@Voyager](#): > > They may be convinced by the liars that they are voting their best interests, but aren’t. For instance, voting for representatives who refuse to raise taxes on the rich while their services get cut. And out of politics, do you deny that people believe in a lot of the religious lies they are told? This is another liberal lie. They like to define a person’s “best interest” as being the one that transfers the most wealth instead of the one that’s the fairest, and then claim that people aren’t voting in their best interest. Well, no shit. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/35 "2011-12-27T15:15:01Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > My favorite liberal lie > > This is another liberal lie. That’s another thing about liars, they like to call other people liars. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/36 "2011-12-27T15:19:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK. Sketch out for me how you are going to lie your way into convincing them to vote the way you think you they should. Let’s see: Romney wants Mormonic Law to replace the Constitution. Gingrich tax plan allows counting all ex-wives as dependents. Republicans are against tax breaks for the middle class (oh wait a minute, this one’s true). Romney supports sales tax on buying vowels on Wheel of Fortune. It doesn’t matter what you make up, just make it damning to the other side. Lie early, lie big, lie little, lie often. Liberals need to adopt the same policy on forwarding anti-Republican glurge emails that right wingers have on forwarding emails about Obama (if it smears Obama, you hit the forward button, regardless if it’s true or not). ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/37 "2011-12-27T15:24:28Z")
I’m reminded of an essay by George Orwell, _Looking Back on the Spanish War_: > [@](#): > > I know it is the fashion to say that most of recorded history is lies anyway. I am willing to believe that history is for the most part inaccurate and biased, but what is peculiar to our own age is the abandonment of the idea that history COULD be truthfully written. In the past people deliberately lied, or they unconsciously coloured what they wrote, or they struggled after the truth, well knowing that they must make many mistakes; but in each case they believed that ‘facts’ existed and were more or less discoverable. And in practice there was always a considerable body of fact which would have been agreed to by almost everyone. If you look up the history of the last war in, for instance, the ENCYCLOPAEDIA BRITANNICA, you will find that a respectable amount of the material is drawn from German sources. A British and a German historian would disagree deeply on many things, even on fundamentals, but there would still be that body of, as it were, neutral fact on which neither would seriously challenge the other. It is just this common basis of agreement, with its implication that human beings are all one species of animal, that totalitarianism destroys. Nazi theory indeed specifically denies that such a thing as ‘the truth’ exists. There is, for instance, no such thing as ‘Science’. There is only ‘German Science’, ‘Jewish Science’, etc. The implied objective of this line of thought is a nightmare world in which the Leader, or some ruling clique, controls not only the future but THE PAST. If the Leader says of such and such an event, ‘It never happened’–well, it never happened. If he says that two and two are five–well, two and two are five. This prospect frightens me much more than bombs–and after our experiences of the last few years that is not a frivolous statement. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/38 "2011-12-27T15:57:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Facts cannot compete with lies Shouldn’t that be, Lies cannot compete with facts? I’m not usually this pedantic but I couldn’t resist pointing that out. ---
**Author:** ![Theophane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/77aa72/32.png) [@Theophane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theophane)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/39 "2011-12-27T15:59:20Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > That’s another thing about liars, they like to call other people liars. Hard to know who to trust sometimes, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377/40 "2011-12-27T16:12:24Z")
> [@Theophane](#): > > Shouldn’t that be, Lies cannot compete with facts? Why would that be? He’s proposing that lies are more effective that facts. Or is there some grammatical nuance that I’m missing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/facts-cannot-compete-with-lies/607377.md?page=3)