# Factual Legal Question about Arizona Immigration Law **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 1, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963 "2010-05-01T14:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/21 "2010-05-02T04:57:17Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > Just to point out, while there are no laws that US citizens must carry proof, that is only true for some of us. As [this story reports](http://coloradoindependent.com/52039/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate), even having ID is not enough to keep you from being arrested. It was his own fault of course, he was Driving While Mexican(-American). While this did happen in Arizona, it was ICE, not any state authorities. > > The really sad part is, according to the ICE, arresting someone with a valid ID and Social Security card is SOP. After all, he is Hispanic, in the SW USA. :dubious: It was ICE, and it happened before the law even was signed, so it has nothing to do with the law at issue. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/22 "2010-05-02T13:33:54Z")
Just one comment. I got my SS card when I got a job. Nowadays, if you want to declare a child as a dependent on the income tax form, you need a SS number. So effectively every citizen gets a SS card at birth. The most obvious exceptions would likely be US born children of illegal aliens. And some people want to deprive them of citizenship (never mind the constitution–a pretty document with no force, unless you want it to). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/23 "2010-05-02T14:40:29Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > A cop can ask anyone if they are here legally without reasonable suspicion just like a member of the public can. What reasonable suspicion usually allows a cop to do is to stop a person for enough time to investigate his suspicion. That means that anyone asked by a cop about their legal status without reasonable suspicion would be free (under the law) to ignore the cop. > > This law requires a cop to check the legal status of a person when he has reasonable suspicion that the person is in the country illegally. The standard for reasonable suspicion will not be clear until courts iron it out on a case by case bases. However, it is highly unlikely that courts will accept suspicion based solely on race. So you can expect a standard of suspicion based on something more than the race of the suspect. > > Once a cop has reasonable suspicion… This is the bit I don’t get. What can suspicion that someone is an illegal immigrant possibly be based on, if not race? What clues could help you differentiate between two white males, one of whom is an illegal immigrant and one of whom is not? I’ve genuinely been wondering. ---
**Author:** ![squeekster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@squeekster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeekster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/24 "2010-05-02T22:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **squeekster** > All Arizona is doing with this law is enforcing something that the Federal government SHOULD be enforcing but isn’t. > > > [@bup](#): > > > > Is this factual or editorializing? Does a federal cop have the same threshold to instigate a citizenship check, and all this law does is charge the state cops with the same? Or, what is the threshold for a federal cop to check someone’s citizenship status? Well, one of the jobs of the Federal government IS to protect its borders. From all the illegals in this country, I strongly suspect a charge of dereliction of duty could be made to fit. ---
**Author:** ![squeekster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/779978/32.png) [@squeekster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeekster)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/25 "2010-05-02T22:04:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **squeekster** > No, I don’t believe that a cop can stop a person who he thinks is illegal just because he thinks they are illegal. They must have probable cause. > > > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > > > No they must have reasonable suspicion: > > > > “WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS” My bad. Reasonable suspicion is what I meant, not probable cause. Sorry about that. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/26 "2010-05-02T22:06:29Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Just one comment. I got my SS card when I got a job. Nowadays, if you want to declare a child as a dependent on the income tax form, you need a SS number. So effectively every citizen gets a SS card at birth. The most obvious exceptions would likely be US born children of illegal aliens. And some people want to deprive them of citizenship (never mind the constitution–a pretty document with no force, unless you want it to). Good point. Although most people I’ve heard propose anything along those lines acknowledge that it would be necessary to amend the Constittuion to make such a change, so I don’t think it’s fair to say those folks are seeking to ignore the constitution – merfely amned it, wheich the docuemtn itself provides for and which has been done 17 times in our history. Now, if anyone believes we could somehow make that change WITHOUT amending the Constitution, then your comment is apt. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/27 "2010-05-02T22:23:37Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > This is the bit I don’t get. What can suspicion that someone is an illegal immigrant possibly be based on, if not race? What clues could help you differentiate between two white males, one of whom is an illegal immigrant and one of whom is not? I’ve genuinely been wondering. In the GD thread, I offered some speculation on this question. Permissble indicia would be consensual questions asked (for which no reasonable suspicion is needed) about citizenship and residency with inconsistent or incriminating responses. Appearance or language use would most likely be found inappropriate indicia on which to rely, and the law does suggest that they couldn’t be used. But of course, the main fear seems to be that in practice, those kinds of factors would be considered… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/28 "2010-05-03T11:33:39Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the GD thread, I offered some speculation on this question. Permissble indicia would be consensual questions asked (for which no reasonable suspicion is needed) about citizenship and residency with inconsistent or incriminating responses. … Appearance or language use would most likely be found inappropriate indicia on which to rely, and the law does suggest that they couldn’t be used. How do police decide who they should be asking these consensual questions? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/29 "2010-05-03T20:50:08Z")
> [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](#): > > How do police decide who they should be asking these consensual questions? Any answer I gave would be speculative, not factual, and thus not suited for GQ. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3ec8ea/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Philosopher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Philosopher)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/30 "2010-05-03T21:09:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Any answer I gave would be speculative, not factual, and thus not suited for GQ. It’s speculation about a factual matter. That’s effectively all we do on this forum right? I can’t think of a single way to judge who to stop and question about their citizenship status unless it involves race, ethnicity or language. If anyone is able to suggest one I’m all ears. ---
**Author:** ![Well\_Cited](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/71e660/32.png) [@Well\_Cited](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Well_Cited)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963/31 "2010-06-01T04:15:57Z")
In all of this, everyone (here and in the media) mentions federal law as it concerns this AZ bill, but NO ONE cites anything specific. I feel so lost. Do any of you know if it really exists? Where is it? What exactly is federal law concerning questioning someone about their immigration status? What do they need or not need in order to ask? I’ve looked quite a bit on the web and haven’t found anything. I want to be able to talk about what the federal government should be doing in specifics, NOT according to hear-say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/factual-legal-question-about-arizona-immigration-law/537963.md?page=1)