# "Fag" isn't insulting to gay people? (includes anime rant) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 19, 2005, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516 "2005-01-19T09:15:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/21 "2005-01-19T16:55:26Z")
Fred Phelps will be so disappointed! ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/22 "2005-01-19T16:56:51Z")
What;s funny is that she got her Japanese wrong by omitting the possessive particle _no_, as in _Mononoke no hime_. Baka desu yo! ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/23 "2005-01-19T17:06:08Z")
> [@Mearl Dox](#): > > “JapanFags”…The explanation was that they were people who “fuck Japanese culture up the ass,” by doing things like watching Dragonball Z. Speaking as someone whose knowledge of anime starts and stops at Aeon Flux (if that’s even considered anime), I would like to offer a different perspective: Having spent $60+ on Yuh-Gi-_Ouch_ cards (for 2 kid’s stocking stuffers) this Christmas season, I’m an American who feels he’s been anally sodomized by Japanese culture. $60 for cardboard pictures! I wanna see a return of the _Topps_ monopoly. > [@Mearl Dox](#): > > No actual gay people were involved in the use of this slur! Except those who were fucking Japanese culture up the ass, making them gay, making them fags, because they like totally suck… Is it just me, or does Japan Fag sound like a subgenre for rice queens? ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/24 "2005-01-19T17:14:49Z")
So, what did she say when you told her all of the fags here on the SDMB thought that it was an insult? 😛😛😛 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/25 "2005-01-19T17:34:25Z")
> [@Mearl Dox](#): > > And we’re both far more hard-core (scary) anime fans than the type who don’t know what “otaku” means. I’m in Japanese IV this semester, I think she was supposed to be in Japanese II at her own school. She’s the kind of fan who angsts about how imaginary Japanese people spying on US anime fans will overhear words like “otaku” and freak out (and I imagine she’d call them “JapanFags.”) I’m the kind who thinks that once a major convention is named after the word, it’s time to quit worrying about it unless you’re actually in Japan or speaking to a Japanese person. Nicely put. Yeah, English is a whore, and “otaku” isn’t the first word we’ve “borrowed” to put to other than its intended use. (Hint: the French words “assister,” “dérider,” “pétulant,” and “librairie” do not mean “assist,” “deride,” “petulant,” and “library.”) It’s really nothing to get a migraine over. However, as a sign that we are no longer using it in the Japanese-language sense, I have given it an Inuktitut plural (Inuktitut plurals are fun!), and **Hamish** and I constitute a houseful of _otakuit._ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/26 "2005-01-19T18:43:47Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > **Hamish** and I constitute a houseful of _otakuit._ Perhaps you should _otakuit_ while you’re ahead? 😉 More seriously, this whole a-word-means-what-I-want-it-to-mean binge is something that annoys me. Words and their usage constitute _communication_. Heinlein once wrote a piece on good writing vs. express-oneself-ism that likened good writing to making love – attention being paid not only to what one was oneself doing, but to how it was pleasing the recipient of one’s attention – vs. expressing oneself as verbal masturbation, doing what feels good to you with no thought that somebody else is going to have to clean up your ejaculations. I would not use “fag” or “faggot” _just because_ they’re traditionally used in an insulting sense by non-gays towards gay people. If **matt** cares to reference himself as a “sissy-fag,” that’s his prerogative; he’s entitled to use what terms he chooses to describe himself. It does not license **me** to use those terms towards him. Very occasionally, a witticism will occur to me that plays off a comment made by a gay person and references some part of the “gay stereotype” – I think long and hard before I decide whether to make that witticism, considering whether it will be seen as insulting or as joking with friends. (One occasion I _did_ do so was in setting **JayJay** up with the perfect penultimate line on which he could construct an elaborate pun – and I pointed out to him, after he had done so, that any gay man engaged in delivering one-liners needs a straight man, topping his with my own pun. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/27 "2005-01-19T19:05:03Z")
> [@Mearl Dox](#): > > She’s the kind of fan who angsts about how imaginary Japanese people spying on US anime fans will overhear words like “otaku” and freak out People like this are funny. If this girl were really concerned about what the Japanese think of her, the best thing she could do would be to give up Japanese anime altogether. To the limited extent that the Japanese are aware of American anime fans, they generally think they’re pathetic losers. Judging from only my students, by the age of 13 or 14 even Japanese kids won’t admit to watching anime shows anymore. Girls of that age have told me they “used to” like watching **Sailor Moon**. One boy very emphatically told me he _never_ watches _any_ kind of anime because “I am not children!” ---
**Author:** ![TheOnlySaneOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@TheOnlySaneOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheOnlySaneOne)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/28 "2005-01-19T19:13:57Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > So what if I like that show with the hamsters? What filthy thing am I doing to Japanese culture? I’m pretty sure that counts as felching. Loudly. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![LeeshaJoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e8cbc/32.png) [@LeeshaJoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeeshaJoy)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/29 "2005-01-19T19:17:55Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > What;s funny is that she got her Japanese wrong by omitting the possessive particle _no_, as in _Mononoke no hime_. > > Baka desu yo! Wouldn’t that make her the Princess OF Mononoke, as opposed to Princess Mononoke? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/30 "2005-01-19T19:28:50Z")
> [@LeeshaJoy](#): > > Wouldn’t that make her the Princess OF Mononoke, as opposed to Princess Mononoke? Well, that’s the title in Japanese because _no_ can be also be used to connect a descriptor with a noun, as in " desuku no kyabinetto" (desk cabinet). ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/31 "2005-01-19T20:02:58Z")
Is it JapanFag or Japan Fag? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/32 "2005-01-19T20:15:59Z")
The [Internet Movie Database](http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0119698), which is usually reliable, calls it “Mononoke-hime”. I’d interpret that as the name “Mononoke” together with the honorific “-hime”, meaning “princess”. Perhaps the confusion comes because “Mononoke” contains the syllable “no” twice, and “no” is often used in Meiji-period names. But I’d have no problem with people calling it “Princess Mononoke”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/33 "2005-01-19T20:42:43Z")
Perhaps you should email her the [Japan Hierarchy](http://www.midaregami.net/weblog/archives/images/japan-hierarchy.jpg) … . ---
**Author:** ![Netbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71e660/32.png) [@Netbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Netbrian)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/34 "2005-01-19T20:43:02Z")
> [@NattoGuy](#): > > The girl doesn’t proudly call herself an “otaku” does she? If so, she ought to know that in Japan the phrase doesn’t mean “obsessed over hobbies”, it means someone so socially inept that they close themselves in their rooms and literally do not see the outside world for months at a time. It is not the term of admiration that American anime freaks have somehow made it out to be. Note that this really should only be taken into account when describing oneself to Japanese people with that term. Among Americans, the terms means something milder and more positive. (Honestly, Modern Japan should really be the last place to complain about a country taking a word from their language and changing its meaning/connotations.) ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/35 "2005-01-19T23:50:57Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > To the limited extent that the Japanese are aware of American anime fans, they generally think they’re pathetic losers. Judging from only my students, by the age of 13 or 14 even Japanese kids won’t admit to watching anime shows anymore. Girls of that age have told me they “used to” like watching **Sailor Moon**. One boy very emphatically told me he _never_ watches _any_ kind of anime because “I am not children!” They don’t use anime-related shitajiki? But I agree with your general principle. In junior high schools manga are far more popular than anime. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/36 "2005-01-19T23:53:40Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Well, that’s the title in Japanese because _no_ can be also be used to connect a descriptor with a noun, as in " desuku no kyabinetto" (desk cabinet). I agree that Mononoke no Hime would make more sense, but the title is Mononoke Hime : [![](http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/B00005Q4I3.09.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) ](http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/B00005Q4I3.09.LZZZZZZZ.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/37 "2005-01-20T01:25:13Z")
Hardcore anime fans scare me. In an Intro to Marketing class I took a few years ago the kid sitting next to me told me: A) His parents give him an $800 monthly allowance (for everything) that he consistently blows on anime DVDs and trinkets. And he still needs more money! B) He had never heard of U2 (this was right after “All That You Can’t Leave Behind” dropped), but he didn’t think they were any good because “All J-Pop is better.” C) He’d seen The Simpsons several times, but he refuses to watch it now because it wasn’t as good as [obscure anime he had downloaded and fansubbed himself]. I hated that class by the end of the quarter and it had nothing to do with the workload. This moron somehow became part of my groupwork as well. It was torture. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/38 "2005-01-20T02:05:43Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > To the limited extent that the Japanese are aware of American anime fans, they generally think they’re pathetic losers. Judging from only my students, by the age of 13 or 14 even Japanese kids won’t admit to watching anime shows anymore. Girls of that age have told me they “used to” like watching **Sailor Moon**. One boy very emphatically told me he _never_ watches _any_ kind of anime because “I am not children!” Isn’t there more mature anime than things like Sailor Moon? I thought Princess Mononoke was fairly adult. ---
**Author:** ![Foible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Foible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foible)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/39 "2005-01-20T02:55:45Z")
Merle Dox’s fine rant is becoming a civil thread about anime questions and Japanese culture. Perhaps Merle or one of the knowledgeable folks could start an “ask me about anime” thread? My cable company gives me a bunch of “on demand” anime shows but I have no context for them. For example, “Colorful” is a bunch of vignettes about horny men trying to get a glimpse of panties. Each espisode is under ten minutes but there are a lot of them, all with the same plot. Who (besides me) watches these? Are they on obscure Japanese cable stations or prime time? Almost every show makes me more curious about the audiences instead of the plots. There’s a bunch of them I’ve got questions about but I’ll save them for an apropriate place. ---
**Author:** ![caphis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19adc/32.png) [@caphis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caphis)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516/40 "2005-01-20T03:35:09Z")
For the record, I’m gay and I’m rarely, if ever, offended by “fag.” So, don’t say that ALL of us are offende by it. 😃 Then again, I find it difficult to categorize a word, itself, as “offensive” or “nonoffensive;” to me, one must be offended by the intent of the speaker. But, that’s just me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fag-isnt-insulting-to-gay-people-includes-anime-rant/285516.md?page=3)