# Failed incentives in the work place **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909 "2016-05-04T17:07:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/21 "2016-05-07T03:41:28Z")
In my experience with layoffs at one company I worked for, job performance had nothing to do with it. Senior middle managers who were paid the most and received more benefits were given 15 minutes to clean out their desks, with security watching over them, and then “escorted” to the door like they were criminals. This was a decision imposed by a head office two thousand miles away that only considered the bottom line and nothing else. It left a demoralizing pall hanging over the company for quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/22 "2016-05-07T03:48:22Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I have _never_ worked anywhere that got rid of the good employees during a reduction in headcount. The company always knows who the bad employees are, and they’re the first ones gotten rid of when they need to reduce employee numbers - it’s an easy way to get rid of them without having to jump through the hoops otherwise needed to protect against wrongful dismissal suits. > > However, every times I’ve worked somewhere that had a headcount reduction, all the bad employees who were reduced _thought_ they were the good employees. Or it’s someone about whom it is known that they’re going to be leaving the company in a short time. This happened to me many years ago; everyone knew that I was planning to go back to school, so when the axe fell, it was me. I didn’t mind, because I got severance pay, unemployment, and they also gave me 3 months of health insurance at no cost to me. Had I quit, that would have been it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/23 "2016-05-07T04:06:03Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’ve never seen a greater failure of an incentive. What about Arizona’s Bring Your Scorpion to Work Day? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/24 "2016-05-07T04:42:57Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > I have _never_ worked anywhere that got rid of the good employees during a reduction in headcount. The company always knows who the bad employees are, and they’re the first ones gotten rid of when they need to reduce employee numbers - it’s an easy way to get rid of them without having to jump through the hoops otherwise needed to protect against wrongful dismissal suits. > > However, every times I’ve worked somewhere that had a headcount reduction, all the bad employees who were reduced _thought_ they were the good employees. That’s true for percentage reductions, but I’ve been in places where big projects were canceled, and then almost everyone on the project got let go. Good and bad. In one case there was actually a freeze on other hiring and there was a job fair where we lucky people got to make offers to those at risk. This wasn’t lip service - I got a real good programmer out of this process. Now everyone was also sending out resumes, so many good people who got other jobs in the company took jobs outside. It is also the case that being a victim of a big layoff is not a blot on your record, especially since lots of hiring managers have gotten laid off at one time or another. Getting fired randomly however does not look so good. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/25 "2016-05-07T04:46:37Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Obviously you never worked at GE in Jack Welch’s prime or at Microsoft in the past 6 years or so. Mandatory manage out 5% of staff in every group per year every year. Not so hard on year one or two, a lot harder to find deadwood in year 5, real hard to find deadwood in a 5 person team year after year. It’s pretty toxic. This is pretty standard these days. Intel does it (though they deny it.) A performance review meeting that lasted until 9:30 pm partially to find a sacrifice to this stupid policy was the motivator for me to leave. At Bell Labs we did what we called natural ranking, where we grouped people who seemed similar and had as many categories as seemed reasonable. I walked out of those meetings not feeling dirty. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/26 "2016-05-07T04:52:32Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Here’s my favorite failed incentive: the Republican legislature in NC, trying to distract from the series of pay freezes teachers got, passed a law. > > 25% of teachers in each district would get raises of $500 a year for three years. (The law was not entirely clear whether this would mean 500, 1000, 1500, 0 over 4 years, or 500, 500, 500, 0 over 4 years, or something different). The other 75% of teachers would get no raises at all. I think Amazon more or less does this. (Not the other weird stuff.) My company, a major tech company, does also. If you only have 25 - 35% of employees who deserve raises either your recruiting sucks, your management sucks, our your HR and top management suck. (It is the last case for us.) Oddly enough, those who don’t expect to get a raise ever again until they leave sometimes do leave, but pretty much stop working extra hours. They noticed that the parking lot started filling up later and emptying earlier, and they had the nerve to force managers to read something about how hard we were supposed to work. My boss read it with a straight face, just barely. I like my boss. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/27 "2016-05-07T05:47:25Z")
In situations where layoffs will always be made by seniority or seniority/job classification (such as government agencies), managers have a duty to keep weak employees weeded out. It’s painful to do because the employee is usually doing at least some of the position’s work, while after they’re let go (a long, dreary process), it could be a year or more before they’re replaced. During that time everyone else will have to pick up the slack for the unfilled position. But if the manager doesn’t do it, layoffs by seniority could leave the team minus some good workers while keeping some weak ones. In our recent bankruptcy, it was layoff by seniority/job classification. The fund that was going negative was the general fund. Job classifications paid out of the general fund were pruned hard. Other funding is earmarked for specific things. Our department has access to several funding streams that can’t be used as general funds. In addition, we’re always writing grants, so most of our salaries are paid through grants or grants and specific funds. Laying anyone from our section off would not have saved any general fund money, so none of us were considered for layoff. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/28 "2016-05-07T23:54:07Z")
I’ve worked for companies that used RIFs to get rid of crap performers. And also older ones. And also some who are medically expensive. And then they publish a list of ages and titles of those RIF’ed and goddfamn if it isn’t a perfect fucking bell curve on age! ---
**Author:** ![YWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/6f9a4e/32.png) [@YWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWalker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/29 "2016-05-08T00:44:42Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > I have **always** felt more demotivated after receiving my performance review even when they’re excellent ones. The whole process is political, and it’s soul-killing. My feelings exactly. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/30 "2016-05-08T01:00:16Z")
Had a boss that’d praise you for 51.9 weeks, then rake you over the coals at your performance review: “…and given all these shortcomings, I don’t see how we could possibly give you a raise this year.” Did he not think we’d all compare notes and find out he pulled the same thing with everyone? I could’ve fought it and tried to get documentation, but quitting was a lot more satisfying. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/31 "2016-05-08T05:39:38Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Had a boss that’d praise you for 51.9 weeks, then rake you over the coals at your performance review: “…and given all these shortcomings, I don’t see how we could possibly give you a raise this year.” I worked at a place that had a nicer policy. It was their informal (unwritten) but explicit spoken policy that annual performance reviews should never have any surprises. ---
**Author:** ![Mince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@Mince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mince)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/32 "2016-05-08T07:04:28Z")
You’re equating two different dynamics. In your first scenario, a company will always separate the lesser workers first, unless cost is such a factor where they will tolerate lesser talented workers over higher paid talent. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/33 "2016-05-08T11:28:47Z")
Currently our Performance Management system means that you are 25% more likely to be in the ‘must improve’ category if you are, Female Above 55 From an ethnic minority working part time Those in the ‘exceeded’ category are 25% more likely to be there if… White Male Between 30-45 Above band 6 (out of 11 grade levels) The current sticking plaster to correct this 10 years worth of discrimination is to put those white middle aged males on ‘unconscious bias’ training. It won’t work, the only thing that will work is to change the mix of managers, and comes down to the interview and appointment opportunities. I’ll bet you cannot guess who makes up the vast majority of our middle and lower managers? Result a workforce that fully understands the working expectations, you attend and do a job, not a good one, nor a bad one, just one that more or less meets the requirements. Ah the glories of centrally controlled management from an office in London, hundreds of miles away. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/34 "2016-05-08T15:37:29Z")
Don’t people realize how important employee morale is? ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909/35 "2016-05-08T20:42:46Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > Don’t people realize how important employee morale is? They do, they just stopped giving a shit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failed-incentives-in-the-work-place/753909.md?page=1)