# Failing the Bechdel test with an all-female cast **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 2, 2013, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609 "2013-04-02T09:11:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/21 "2013-04-02T18:11:54Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > Question about the Bechdel test: Do the female characters have to be hetero? Given that the test first appeared in Allison Bechdel’s comic, [_Dykes to Watch Out For_,](http://www.fempop.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/therule.jpg) I’d say “No.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/22 "2013-04-02T18:12:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Various radical feminist short stories with all female casts who talk about how awful men are would qualify by violating #3. I forget the title, but I recall one old feminist sci-fi story with two women talking about how penises are alien mind control worms, men are less intelligent than women, and about how without men women can have painless virgin birth. “Manikins” by John Varley ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/23 "2013-04-02T21:07:35Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > “The Vagina Monologues” can’t win because it doesn’t meet the criteria to compete. Sure it does. Any fictional work where the only speaking roles are filled by women is eligible. I haven’t seen _The Vagina Monologues_, but from what I understand it’s a work of fiction consisting of a series of monologues delivered by one or more female actors. So it’s eligible, but only on a technicality; I was hoping we might come up with some works which fail due to violating condition #3 instead of #2 or #1. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/24 "2013-04-02T21:49:35Z")
I had the mixed fortune to watch a play in London starring both Dame Maggie Smith and Dame Judi Dench: The Breath of Life. It is just those two, for a whole play, doing nothing but bitching about a man. I didn’t think the play was any great shakes, but I could watch those two read a phone book, so it was an enjoyable evening nonetheless. Here’s an [article](http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/entertainment/theatre/breathoflife.shtml)about the play that totally disagrees with me about the play being a bit rubbish, but you get the drift, I think. So, yes. Very possible. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/25 "2013-04-02T22:19:26Z")
Sex and the City ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/26 "2013-04-03T00:00:09Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Sex and the City Shoes and handbags are not men. 🙂 ETA: Conversations about of course… not as speaking parts… that would just be weird… ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/27 "2013-04-03T00:31:09Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Sex and the City > [@Apollyon](#): > > Shoes and handbags are not men. 🙂 > > ETA: Conversations about of course… not as speaking parts… that would just be weird… _Sex and the City_ also fails the OP’s requirements when it comes to speaking parts though, since men did have speaking parts on the show. There aren’t a lot of plays, movies, or TV series with single sex casts, and I suspect that all-male casts are more common than all-female ones just because historically women had a limited role in some popular settings like the military and courtrooms. I can think of several books where all the _major_ characters were women, but I’m struggling to come up with any that didn’t have a single male character with dialogue. There are probably a number of short stories with only a few characters where all are of the same sex, and it wouldn’t surprise me to find one where the whole story was two women talking about a man (or the other way around), but I can’t think of any examples. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/28 "2013-04-03T02:24:22Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > _Sex and the City_ also fails the OP’s requirements when it comes to speaking parts though, since men did have speaking parts on the show. What? The OP says nothing about not allowing men to have speaking parks. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/29 "2013-04-03T02:36:11Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > What? The OP says nothing about not allowing men to have speaking parks. Read it again. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/30 "2013-04-03T02:47:37Z")
If there is something non-trivial (meaning not all monologues or only a single character), I suspect it will likely about somebody who lost their father/brother/friend in either the euphemistic or literal sense. Like a short story about a lost little girl trying to find her father that only happens to interact with women (maybe it’s set it a women’s shelter or something). All You Zombies might kind of qualify in the most bizarre manner possible. [spoiler]Every person in the story is a past/future version of the same person. However, this opens up some issues about transexuality, time travel, and the self since we’re introduced to this character as a man, and he rapes his former female self and impregnates her to give birth to him/herself, which is what causes her to change her identity to male, iirc. And even then, his “former female self” is intersex. I can’t really recall if they ever have a conversation that’s not about one of the versions of him/her in at least an indirect way.[/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/31 "2013-04-03T03:31:37Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > Read it again. Yup, that was my mistake. I even read it twice before too. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/32 "2013-04-03T03:44:58Z")
Y’know, you could almost make a _Top Gun_-knockoff movie with an all-female cast that’d fail the test. Depending on how much you want to cheat with “talking” (if you included mission briefings and only general radio chatter) and “about a man” (especially if you call an enemy plane a “he,” which may not even be the case). It’d be kind of like writing a story without using the letter “e.” But with more MiGs. ---
**Author:** ![Old\_Eel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/977dab/32.png) [@Old\_Eel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Old_Eel)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/33 "2013-04-03T05:37:52Z")
_50 Shades of Grey_ has some very superficial conversations between women that are not about men, but these usually turn into discussions of men, or, the whole time they are talking, at least one of them is thinking about a man. ---
**Author:** ![Hallucinex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba9def/32.png) [@Hallucinex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hallucinex)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/34 "2013-04-03T10:46:00Z")
8 Femmes? I think it was just women. I’m sure they talked about other things, but pretty sure the plot revolved around a man that had died. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/35 "2013-04-03T11:12:05Z")
The hard requirement that \*only \*women can have speaking parts is going to limit you to a handful of plays or perfromance pieces. Beyond this is it really all that big a deal? In real life women are generally more oriented than men in casual conversation to talking about people rather than things. If art reflects that reality is it being sexist? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/36 "2013-04-03T11:23:47Z")
> [@astro](#): > > The hard requirement that \*only \*women can have speaking parts is going to limit you to a handful of plays or perfromance pieces. Surely there must be some written fiction as well. There must be a lot of short stories with only female characters, or where females are the only ones with dialogue. > [@](#): > > Beyond this is it really all that big a deal? Of course not. This is just a fun thought exercise which playfully subverts the Bechdel test. ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/37 "2013-04-03T11:24:37Z")
It’s not about being sexist as such, it’s how we use female characters in storytelling. The issue isn’t that individual movies fail the bechdel test, its that _almost all of them_ do. Male characters talk to each other about all sorts of things, but if two female characters talk to each other, it’s usually just to push forward the narrative of the male characters. When that is systemic, it’s a problem, even when the individual instances aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/38 "2013-04-03T12:05:49Z")
Well, there’s a _Portal_ film coming out at some point… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/39 "2013-04-03T13:55:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > “Manikins” by John Varley Thanks, not recalling the title was irritating. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609/40 "2013-04-03T14:46:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, there’s a Portal film coming out at some point… Would it include Wheatly or Ratmann? Even if it’s just GlaDOS and Chell, though, while there’s never any dialog between those two, GlaDOS certainly talks to Chell, and usually about topics other than men. I would argue that Portal passes the Bechdel test. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-the-bechdel-test-with-an-all-female-cast/654609.md?page=3)