# Failing to pay a prostitute. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385 "2015-06-01T21:31:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/21 "2015-06-02T09:43:31Z")
Oddly, the human player could do this in Grand Theft Auto Vice City…and steal her money and kill her. Its both rape and theft IMO. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/22 "2015-06-02T11:31:08Z")
What if the prostitute is the man’s wife? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/23 "2015-06-02T12:21:54Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Recent Australian case: [Man jailed for raping sex worker by pretending to pay with envelope stuffed with paper](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-06/man-jailed-for-rape-after-tricking-sex-worker/6075496) I’ll expect an appeal. And would not be surprised at a reversal. ---
**Author:** ![cladking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@cladking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cladking)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/24 "2015-06-02T15:24:46Z")
It’s obviously not rape and is more serious than theft. How about making hormones without a license? Sorry. This killed when I was on sixth grade. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/25 "2015-06-02T15:40:30Z")
If we agree on fifty bucks and all I have is forty, is that rape too? ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/26 "2015-06-02T15:44:16Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > Recent Australian case: [Man jailed for raping sex worker by pretending to pay with envelope stuffed with paper](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-06/man-jailed-for-rape-after-tricking-sex-worker/6075496) > [@](#): > > “I felt internally violated, used and dirty,” she told the court. > > "I fully expected he was going to hurt me. > > “He made me complicit in my own rape.” > > She told the court she has suffered from a lack of trust in others and was still receiving counselling. Yikes. I can’t count the number of times a client has stiffed me, and I’ve never gotten counseling. ---
**Author:** ![trmptgn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@trmptgn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trmptgn)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/27 "2015-06-02T16:05:41Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > I think that only applies when the victim is tricked into thinking they are having sex with someone else. The scene in Revenge of the Nerds where the blonde cheer leader has sex with one of the nerds who is wearing her boyfriends costume comes to mind. If the victim consents to having sex with party A, but but party B does it instead type of thing. This made me remember an interesting article I had read about a New Jersey bill being proposed: ["Rape by fraud" bill in New Jersey: Bad for legitimate sexual assault legislation.](http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/11/25/_rape_by_fraud_bill_in_new_jersey_bad_for_legitimate_sexual_assault_legislation.html). I’m not sure what happened with the bill - as far as I can tell it didn’t get anywhere. It was pretty broadly worded and could possibly have made it possible to declare rape based on a very wide range of deceit not just limited to impersonating a different person entirely. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/28 "2015-06-02T16:54:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Lawyers for Livas told the court he was prepared to pay reparations, but the crown told the court none were being sought. It seems like getting paid ought to make her feel unraped? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/29 "2015-06-02T17:38:13Z")
You guys are looking at it all wrong. You don’t pay the prostitute for sex. You pay her to leave afterwards. I think that solves the whole rape problem. Don’t pay her, and she’s going to hang around and nag you about cleaning out the garage. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/30 "2015-06-02T19:23:35Z")
It’s important to note that a contract to perform an illegal act is void, so strictly speaking - at least in places where prostitution is a crime - there was never a valid promise to pay. In other words, it’s not even theft of services. > [@AK84](#): > > I’ll expect an appeal. And would not be surprised at a reversal. I expect it’s just bad reporting. He was probably convicted of some sort of fraud-related crime rather than rape. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/31 "2015-06-03T00:55:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s important to note that a contract to perform an illegal act is void, so strictly speaking - at least in places where prostitution is a crime - there was never a valid promise to pay. In other words, it’s not even theft of services. > > I expect it’s just bad reporting. He was probably convicted of some sort of fraud-related crime rather than rape. The charge was “sexual intercourse without consent”, which in the ACT is a less serious offence than sexual assault in the first degree or sexual assault in the second degree. There is no offence called “rape” in the ACT. There was a degree of surprise at the conviction, and a number of people expressed the view that it would be overturned on appeal. An appeal has been lodged against both conviction and sentence, and Livas has been bailed pending the hearing of the appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/32 "2015-06-03T02:09:56Z")
Huh. That _is_ an awful decision, then. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/33 "2015-06-03T02:37:20Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I’m going to be excruriated for this, maybe, but I say theft of service. She had sex willingly with him, he just didn’t meet his end of the bargain. > > To take another example, let’s assume that some virtuous young woman agrees to have sex with some guy only because he promises to marry her. After, he refuses the marriage. I don’t think this can possibly can be considered rape. Same with, say, some woman saying she will have sex with her boyfriend only if he carries out his long delayed promise to bring her on a cruise to the Bahamas. Once again, he doesn’t. I still don’t see how that can be rape. Or “I give you a blowjob, you do the dishes”. You don’t do the dishes. That’s not sexual assault. Breach of promise of marriage is not **necessarily** rape. [India, 2013](http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/we-have-to-see-if-breach-of-promise-to-marry-was-mala-filde-says-court/article4733684.ece), [2014](http://scroll.in/article/661695/can-sex-after-a-false-promise-of-marriage-be-called-rape), [2015](http://www.feedlex.com/breach-of-promise-to-marry-by-partner-is-not-rape-high-court/) ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/34 "2015-06-03T02:43:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You guys are looking at it all wrong. You don’t pay the prostitute for sex. You pay her to leave afterwards. I think that solves the whole rape problem. Don’t pay her, and she’s going to hang around and nag you about cleaning out the garage. Her bill was $850. For that kind of money, I imagine she could hire someone else to nag you. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/35 "2015-06-03T04:44:35Z")
I am an innocent of the ways of prostitutes, but don’t most of them ask for money up front? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/36 "2015-06-03T05:28:22Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I am an innocent of the ways of prostitutes, but don’t most of them ask for money up front? She did. He gave her a well-stuffed envelope which, he assured her, contained $850. He asked her not to open it to check the contents as this would be inconsistent with his fantasy, that they had a romantic relationship in which they trusted one another. She agreed, and didn’t open the envelope until afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/37 "2015-06-03T06:02:16Z")
My father (born 1915) had exactly one Army story - one of the guys went into town and shacked up with a local prostitute, and somehow managed to avoid payment, and threw in something like “yeah, whatta goin to do about it?”. Her window overlooked the street. There was a cop nearby. She called out “Hey Joe - that one!” and point out the guy, who was promptly shot in the crotch. Have no idea if this ever actually happened or was just a story making the rounds. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/38 "2015-06-03T14:50:11Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > He asked her not to open it to check the contents as this would be inconsistent with his fantasy, that they had a romantic relationship in which they trusted one another. That, apparently, is why payment after the fact is associated with “high class” call girls – it helps distance the participants from the grubbier realities, and the clientele is generally more trustworthy (if only by dint of having more to lose if they try to weasel). ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/39 "2015-06-03T15:23:17Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I am an innocent of the ways of prostitutes, but don’t most of them ask for money up front? I think you’d have an easier time not prepaying for gas. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385/40 "2015-06-03T15:26:43Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, isn’t _rape-by-deception_ a thing? So, she didn’t know she was raped until the check bounced? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failing-to-pay-a-prostitute/721385.md?page=3)