# Failure to report miscarriage a crime in VA - proposed legislation **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572 "2005-01-07T15:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/21 "2005-01-07T16:51:43Z")
What I could find on Google or [house.gov](http://house.gov) helped none in identifying if Cosgrove is up for re-election soon, which rules out that incentive. [house.gov](http://house.gov) has no record of the bill and [senate.gov](http://senate.gov) returned similar results. If anyone can figure out what “offered 01/12/05 051245276” means (it’s from the OP’s first cite), that might shed some light on this. [Here](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+mbr+H143) is the man’s page on the Virginia General Assembly Legislative Information System website. (I should mention, keeping in mind one of the MPSIMS stickies, that I link to that page not in the hope that folks will bombard the man with hate mail but so we can figure out just what’s going on here.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/22 "2005-01-07T16:59:36Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Are you male? Then your judgment is not needed, thank you. Sorry to be harsh, but it’s true. I notice, **Anaamika** , that you live in New York, and thus presumably wouldn’t be affected by this law at all. I, however, happen to live in Virginia. I’m also the father of three kids, all of whom were born prematurely. My wife had contractions a week before our youngest son was born - when he was born, he was a month early. Our twins were about two months early. I could as easily tell you to butt out of this thread, since the proposed law affects me _directly_, and doesn’t affect you _at all_. I won’t do it, though. I welcome your input. That means, though, that you’ll just have to put up with my participation in this discussion as well. If you don’t want to deal with that, you have options available to you. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/23 "2005-01-07T17:07:02Z")
Thank you, **Siege** , for those kind words! You made my morning. This law is not needed and IMO, violates a woman’s right to privacy. The wording of it reveals the depths of ignorance re: gestation on the part of the originaters. Interesting side note (speculation): with HIPPA, would a HCP be required to release this info? Which law takes precedence? HIPPA is federal, this will be state. Hmm. As a HCP, I would invoke HIPPA in a hearbeat to protect a pt in this circumstance. As an aside–I find it hysterical that a funeral home would be notified for a miscarriage of less than 20 weeks. Most miscarriages take place under 12 weeks–there is NOTHING to bury, NOTHING to cremate. It IS FLUSHED or laundered away. I am _not_ saying that there is nothing to grieve, or nothing to honor with some sort of ritual or cermony, depending on the individual’s preferences. But with that FH reference, I am now speculating about money. Will a form have to be filled out upon a “discovered” miscarriage? Does that include a fee of some sort, payable to the FH? To the county? How on earth is this supposed to be enacted? It is sounding more and more like Rumania every time I refer back to it. Something stinks to high heaven about this pending legislation. As a female, I am concerned about MORE regulation on my natural bodily functions and cynical as to the motives behind it. This is not about life pro-choice-“pro”-life stuff. This is about criminalizing an act of nature/ God–a miscarriage! And I hafta agree that men should tread carefully here–it is NOT you who will serve time for menstruating. That brings up another interesting issue: if a guy doesn’t turn his GF/wife in–is he accessory after the fact? Have we completely lost our minds? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/24 "2005-01-07T17:13:06Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > And I hafta agree that men should tread carefully here–it is NOT you who will serve time for menstruating. Except that you aren’t agreeing but stating something in a more … accepting nature. The portion of post I think you’re referencing is this: > [@](#): > > Are you male? Then your judgment is not needed, thank you. Sorry to be harsh, but it’s true. That allows for significantly less room for discussion than your statement. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/25 "2005-01-07T17:20:25Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > And I hafta agree that men should tread carefully here–it is NOT you who will serve time for menstruating. Well, by that way of thinking, female congressional representatives should abstain any time a vote comes up for prostate cancer research. Male representatives should hold their tongues any time breast cancer funding is discussed. Or we could just return to that marvelous period before 1920 when women didn’t have the vote at all. The same logic that says I shouldn’t have an opinion here once dictated that women shouldn’t have an opinion about anything. Silly examples, I know. But your statement is even sillier. Delegate Cosgrove represents Chesapeake, Virginia in the General Assembly. There are women living in Chesapeake. I used to live there myself, so I know this to be true. 😃 He is their representative as well in the Assembly, and thus has every right to introduce such legislation as he sees fit for their protection and benefit. The bill might not pass, or it might, depending on how other representatives from across the Commonwealth feel. Now, you’re entitled to your opinion, sure. But so is he and so am I, as participants in the body politic. With all due respect, you have no right to suggest I should tread carefully here. ---
**Author:** ![35340](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/8baadc/32.png) [@35340](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/35340)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/26 "2005-01-07T17:24:05Z")
I think it’s great. We should also be required (men and women) to report every instance of consensual and non consenual sexual contact with each other that is in a manner that might lead to procreation (including anal sex, in case of swapping over to the ‘wrong hole’, mutual masturbation, non consumptive blow jobs). And, make every woman report every time her body cycles so that way we can keep track of any potentially unreported miscarriage … report and submit proof, just to ensure that someone isn’t faking it. I guess we’d have to license those of us with infertility problems - so I wouldn’t get acossted by the cops just because I cycle every couple of months instead of with the phase of Earth’s moon - maybe I’ve got the cycle of Io instead? Not sure. I for one, welcome our new Menstrual Overlords. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/27 "2005-01-07T17:24:47Z")
Well, I’m not gonna the intent of someeone else’s( **Aanimika’s** ) post. I took it to mean–tread carefully and let me rant about yet another attempt to control something female. I also don’t see the point in arguing about someone else’s misdirected rage, when we have bigger fish to fry, as it were. I can see why others would take it at face value, though. So, you are correct–I sympathize with the sentiment by **Aanimka** , but do not agree with the position. Is that precise enough? I truly do think that all concerned got my meaning. I also believe that there are many men who would be as offended by this nonsense as women–but for us, it cuts waaaaay closer to home. Therefore, we are apt to be a whole lot angrier about it and more threatened by it. Mebbe all I’m saying that bear with the rage, eh? This is the Pit and sometimes things get splattered. (sorry to give old vets advice here!) ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/28 "2005-01-07T17:27:59Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > … > As an aside–I find it hysterical that a funeral home would be notified for a miscarriage of less than 20 weeks. Most miscarriages take place under 12 weeks–there is NOTHING to bury, NOTHING to cremate. It IS FLUSHED or laundered away. > … I think the reference to funeral homes being required to report a miscarriage is in those cases 20 weeks and over when there is a larger formed fetus involved. I can understand having to report miscarriages after that point, it’s the first trimester where miscarriages are more common where it shouldn’t be necessary. Many women do not even announce they are pregnant until after the 3rd month, especially if they have miscarried before, because they want to be more sure that it will survive. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/29 "2005-01-07T17:29:44Z")
The optimist in me thinks that Cosgrove is well-intentioned but misguided. The pragmatist in me sees this as a foot-in-the-door towards outlawing RU-486. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/30 "2005-01-07T17:40:05Z")
If the woman reported the miscarriage, she could then be physically and psychologically tested. If any drugs (even asprin or caffeine) or alcohol were found in her system, or even if she mentioned any doubt about continuing the pregnancy, she could be charged with murder for “causing” the miscarriage. ---
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/31 "2005-01-07T17:40:20Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Why Virginia needs to know about miscarriages happening within its borders is beyond me. I seem to remember a Virginia tourism slogan, _Virginia is for Lovers_. No further comment on that. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/32 "2005-01-07T17:44:33Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Well, by that way of thinking, female congressional representatives should abstain any time a vote comes up for prostate cancer research. Male representatives should hold their tongues any time breast cancer funding is discussed. > > Or we could just return to that marvelous period before 1920 when women didn’t have the vote at all. The same logic that says I shouldn’t have an opinion here once dictated that women shouldn’t have an opinion about anything. > Delegate Cosgrove represents Chesapeake, Virginia in the General Assembly. There are women living in Chesapeake. I used to live there myself, so I know this to be true. 😃 > > He is their representative as well in the Assembly, and thus has every right to introduce such legislation as he sees fit for their protection and benefit. The bill might not pass, or it might, depending on how other representatives from across the Commonwealth feel. > > Now, you’re entitled to your opinion, sure. But so is he and so am I, as participants in the body politic. With all due respect, you have no right to suggest I should tread carefully here. You are either being deliberately disingenous or a PIA. You decide. Noone but you has mentioned removing voting rights for women here–where planet are you coming from? The cases are not even remotely similiar–do you want women to lose the vote, so as to make passage of this type of shit more likely and easier? Explain yourself, please. I am referring in my post(“tread carefully”) to the men who will post in this thread–not the population of Chesespeake Bay or other. And, yes, I do say tread carefully to the men here–YOU AREN’T THE ONES GOING TO BE ACCUSED OF A CLASS ONE FELONY IF YOUR MENSTRUAL CYCLE IS MESSED UP. And with “protection and benefits” like the ones proposed by this esteemed member of the legislature, women don’t need any more “help”. This issue is bound to stir anger and frustration in most female posters here–and men, too. I am sorry if you cannot see the need for not being deliberately provocative and picayune. Put it to you this way: how you would like it if you had to report each and every time you ejaculated? oops! Missed that wet dream last week? Gotta fill out some forms on your ass, boy! The scenarios are not the same, sadly, because of the differences in frequency–but you get the idea, dont’ you? ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/33 "2005-01-07T17:45:16Z")
> [@Mojo](#): > > The optimist in me thinks that Cosgrove is well-intentioned but misguided. The pragmatist in me sees this as a foot-in-the-door towards outlawing RU-486. Please explain how this could be well intenitioned? ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/34 "2005-01-07T17:53:49Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > > [@Bricker](#): > > > > Generally speaking, the answer is no. A crime must have both an actus reus - a guilty act - and a mens rea, or guilty mind. Without the requisite mental state, no crime exists. > > But, in that case, since miscarriages happen spontaneously as a rule, without conscious intent or action on the part of the mother, surely this is a ridiculous law? It is not having a miscarriage that would be illegal. (I think that would call for considerably stronger language on the part of the Teeming Millions.) It’s having a miscarriage and failing to report it. If a woman did have a miscarriage and did not recognize it as such, then she did not deliberately choose not to report it, and therefore is not guilty of a crime. I’m guessing that to charge her with the crime, you’d have to be able to demonstrate that she knew it was a miscarriage—maybe she told someone that she knew she had miscarried, or it was late enough in the pregnancy that there is no way it could have been construed as a heavy menstrual day. It’s all veeeerrrry creepy, IMHO. I can just picture myself on the stand attempting to educate a male judge, male lawyer, and 50% male jury on the diluvian proportions of a bad day during my period. I got yer _menses rea_ right here. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/35 "2005-01-07T17:56:57Z")
> [@lee](#): > > Please explain how this could be well intenitioned? I really hate to take the Devil’s Advocate role in the pit of this guy that I started but the only reason I can see for this to be “well-intentioned” if if he thinks it will help the CDC with their statistics and therefore help them catch if their are any trends that would indicate a possible public health concern. Is there some recent concern in Virginia that something like this can be happening? If that is his benign intention then it is indeed _extremely_ misguided to criminalize not reporting it. Allocating funds for some sort of public health campaign would be much more effective and less damaging. I don’t even know how accurate that information would be for the CDC since something like 30-50% of first trimester prenancies end in miscarriage\*. I believe the article stated that the CDC collected this info only on the miscarriages after 20 weeks so they may not even want the information for earlier miscarriages. \*I am repeating a statistic posted elsewhere by a nurse I am not sure of the accuracy of that percentage. Perhaps a doctor here could confirm or debunk that? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/36 "2005-01-07T17:57:03Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If the woman reported the miscarriage, she could then be physically and psychologically tested. If any drugs (even asprin or caffeine) or alcohol were found in her system, or even if she mentioned any doubt about continuing the pregnancy, she could be charged with murder for “causing” the miscarriage. bingo! I think you’re on to something here. And God help her if she smokes or didn’t take her pre-natal vitamins! And how would anyone be able to prove causation? I dunno, but it sure would —do what? What is this bill supposed to do? I smell a hidden agenda on the basis that the bill as read makes no practical sense, nor is it enforcable. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/37 "2005-01-07T17:57:15Z")
May I suggest that all of the Virginia female dopers who are still menstruating send their used pads/tampons/cups/whatever directly to [Congressman Cosgrove](http://energyaction.ase.org/legdirectory/Index.asp?s=y&step=8&id=+++++6628)? Since he’s so interested, I’m sure the’ll test all of them for the rpesense of fetal tissue. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/38 "2005-01-07T18:00:02Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Noone but you has mentioned removing voting rights for women here–where planet are you coming from? The cases are not even remotely similiar–do you want women to lose the vote, so as to make passage of this type of shit more likely and easier? Explain yourself, please. Apparantly the concept of an analogy just completely passed you by. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > I am referring in my post(“tread carefully”) to the men who will post in this thread–not the population of Chesespeake Bay or other. And, yes, I do say tread carefully to the men here–YOU AREN’T THE ONES GOING TO BE ACCUSED OF A CLASS ONE FELONY IF YOUR MENSTRUAL CYCLE IS MESSED UP. Why should I tread carefully? Just so you won’t get mad? I explained above that I’m one of the few posters in this thread directly affected by this legislation. Therefore, I’ll post what I please. And for the record, I don’t yet know whether this is a law I’ll favor or not. BTW, you might want to read the links a little more closely. The crime would be a misdemeanor, not a felony. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > This issue is bound to stir anger and frustration in most female posters here–and men, too. I am sorry if you cannot see the need for not being deliberately provocative and picayune. So, men can now post, as long as they’re sufficiently outraged? Is this what you mean by treading carefully? Perhaps I was being a little provocative, but it was in reaction to a notion I found offensive. I have every right to express my opinions about this subject. You, on the other hand, have no corresponding right not to be offended. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > Put it to you this way: how you would like it if you had to report each and every time you ejaculated? oops! Missed that wet dream last week? Gotta fill out some forms on your ass, boy! The scenarios are not the same, sadly, because of the differences in frequency–but you get the idea, dont’ you? And who’s being provovcative now. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/39 "2005-01-07T18:00:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are many people – many of them women – who believe that an unborn child is a human being, even when he or she resembles a “lump of fetal tissue.” In reply to which, I’ll just quote an esteemed Doper: > [@Bricker](#): > > If so… too damn bad. It isn’t so, it isn’t going to BE so, and that’s that. This proposed law is an attempt to cut off certain pro-choice arguments about the efficacy of anti-abortion laws. One of the pro-choice arguments is that anti-abortion laws are impossible and impractical because they would require “tracking” pregnancies and miscarriages. Ta da! My guess is that the Rep thinks that if this tracking were to go into effect, the pro-choicers would have one less argument. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/40 "2005-01-07T18:08:13Z")
Talk about your miscarriage of justice… what? Hey, quit throwing stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572.md?page=3)