# Failure to report miscarriage a crime in VA - proposed legislation **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572 "2005-01-07T15:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/41 "2005-01-07T18:13:39Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I also believe that there are many men who would be as offended by this nonsense as women–but for us, it cuts waaaaay closer to home. Therefore, we are apt to be a whole lot angrier about it and more threatened by it. Please try not to discount the level or degree of anger, or the potential threat that could be felt by male residents of VA, either. Although he may not personally go to prison, **Mr. Moto** is in danger of losing his wife for up to a year if this legislation passes. That puts him in a position of having to face single parenthood, his children lose their mother, there’s likely a substantial loss of family income, loss of affection, and so on. The consequences for him and his family could be devastating. I suspect the level of anger and threat a man living in VA might feel could certainly equal that of a woman, even if the specific results aren’t identical for each. This is scary legislation for _all_ parties involved. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/42 "2005-01-07T18:21:03Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I also believe that there are many men who would be as offended by this nonsense as women–but for us, it cuts waaaaay closer to home. Therefore, we are apt to be a whole lot angrier about it and more threatened by it. Well, I hadn’t planned on calling out **Anaamika** , I just wanted clarification. And as for this state congressman Cosgrove, I work within his district (but live within Ed Shrock’s old district.) My company’s owners supported his candidacy. In this part of the state, we send some weird ones to represent us to the world. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/43 "2005-01-07T18:23:41Z")
> [@Wile E](#): > > I really hate to take the Devil’s Advocate role in the pit of this guy that I started but the only reason I can see for this to be “well-intentioned” if if he thinks it will help the CDC with their statistics and therefore help them catch if their are any trends that would indicate a possible public health concern. Is there some recent concern in Virginia that something like this can be happening? This was the only thing I could think of to begin to justify such a law, but the more I think about it, the less it makes sense. Right now, we have two reporting systems for “adverse effects” of medications: one for reactions to immunizations and one for all other drugs. If you suffer an adverse reaction, you can call a number and report it. You don’t have to, nor are you punished by law for not doing so. (Doctors may be, I don’t know.) Does this scew the results of studies conducted using these numbers? Of course. Any time you have a self-selecting group, results are a little wonky. But we have a medical system which functions (more-or-less) adequately anyway. Any attempts to change the system are based on educating patients to make them more likely to report adverse effects, not to criminalize them if they don’t. So if they want to track miscarriage rates and try to form some hypotheses about the causes of those miscarriages (hah!), then why not a similar voluntary reporting system? Why criminal penalties? The only reason for criminal penalties is to make criminals - in this case, of grieving mothers. Fuck that. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/44 "2005-01-07T18:27:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A crime must have both an _actus reus_ - a guilty act - and a _mens rea_, or guilty mind. In the case of this law, shouldn’t that be _womens rea_? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/45 "2005-01-07T18:28:18Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Apparantly the concept of an analogy just completely passed you by. No, it didn’t. I think your “analogy” is so weak as to be meaningless. And to bring up another woman’s rights issue (in this already heated thread about yet another curtailment in women’s rights) is being provocative and picayune. > [@](#): > > Why should I tread carefully? Just so you won’t get mad? No, actually it was a bit of friendly advise so that this woudn’t disintegrate into prejudical sexist remarks–oops, too late. It was also a heads up to men that this issue will stir up alot of anger etc from women. This isn’t about man-bashing–it’s about stupid bill bashing that contains within it some of the most chauvinistic premises I’ve seen in a long time. Sorry that you can’t see that. > [@](#): > > I explained above that I’m one of the few posters in this thread directly affected by this legislation. Therefore, I’ll post what I please. And for the record, I don’t yet know whether this is a law I’ll favor or not. Do you menstruate? Your moniker is misleading, if that is the case. You may live in the Commonwealth of VA, but you won’t be effected directly by this law. Ask your GF/partner how she feels about all this. > [@](#): > > BTW, you might want to read the links a little more closely. The crime would be a misdemeanor, not a felony. yes, I noticed that and was going to post about it–thank you for the correction. > [@](#): > > men can now post, as long as they’re sufficiently outraged? Is this what you mean by treading carefully? IMO, either and both gendersshould be outraged by this invasion into an individual’s privacy. What does having XXY got to do with it? YOu say you are undecided–I would like reasons to support this bill. > [@](#): > > I was being a little provocative, but it was in reaction to a notion I found offensive. I have every right to express my opinions about this subject. You, on the other hand, have no corresponding right not to be offended. Whatever-Christ, what a mind! > [@](#): > > 's being provovcative now. :rolleyes It’s a closer analogy than disenfranchising women. And maybe considering it would give you insight into what women in VA will face, if this bill become law. ---
**Author:** ![PinkMarabou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@PinkMarabou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PinkMarabou)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/46 "2005-01-07T18:28:47Z")
Some random thoughts on this, forgive me if they have been stated already. WHAT THE FUCK??? Where the hell does this person get off? Okay, I feel . . . slightly better. Women miscarry hundreds of times in their lives. Most times without us even KNOWING. Does that mean we are murderers? If this passes, I think we as women should try to get a law passed that any time a man ejaculates and it is not DIRECTLY to procreate (that includes masturbation and wet dreams), he should report it to the authorities that he has killed millions of babies. It’s only fair . . . :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![35340](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/8baadc/32.png) [@35340](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/35340)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/47 "2005-01-07T18:30:28Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Talk about your miscarriage of justice… > what? Hey, quit throwing stuff. It’s not throwing, I’m just creatively reporting as required by law. Hold that form a little more steady, will ya? You’re throwing off my aim. (waits for them to add the requirement the form be filled out using an ink pen, and not bodily fluids) ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/48 "2005-01-07T18:32:53Z")
Thanks for the fabulous representation, Del Cosgrove. Now I’m really glad I didn’t vote for you. Signed, A female resident of Chesapeake, VA. Anyway, I think I shall be writing to Mr. Cosgrove and giving him my views on the subject (sans used pads, sorry **The Devil’s Grandmother**.) I’ll ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/49 "2005-01-07T18:34:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are many people – many of them women – who believe that an unborn child is a human being, even when he or she resembles a “lump of fetal tissue.” > > - Rick I understand that you are on of those people. If a lump of fetal tissue at, say, four weeks is indeed a human being, should not a death certificate and proper burial be called for? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/50 "2005-01-07T18:35:34Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > I understand that you are on of those people. If a lump of fetal tissue at, say, four weeks is indeed a human being, should not a death certificate and proper burial be called for? Oops. _One_ of those people. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/51 "2005-01-07T18:36:12Z")
How will the authorities know that a woman is pregnant in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/52 "2005-01-07T18:36:30Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > What I could find on Google or [house.gov](http://house.gov) helped none in identifying if Cosgrove is up for re-election soon, which rules out that incentive. [house.gov](http://house.gov) has no record of the bill and [senate.gov](http://senate.gov) returned similar results. If anyone can figure out what “offered 01/12/05 051245276” means (it’s from the OP’s first cite), that might shed some light on this. [Here](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+mbr+H143) is the man’s page on the Virginia General Assembly Legislative Information System website. > > (I should mention, keeping in mind one of the MPSIMS stickies, that I link to that page not in the hope that folks will bombard the man with hate mail but so we can figure out just what’s going on here.) [house.gov](http://house.gov) is a Federal level site. Therefore, you won’t find anything about Cosgrove, who is a state legislator. Using the same link as above, I did find the bill. It’s not even assigned to a committee, so there are many ways for it to die before it ever getsz to the floor for a vote. I’ll be the first to admit that VA has some grade A prime assholes in the legislature (hell, some of them make Woody Burton of Indiana look mainstream), but there are also some level heads there, and I suspect this will go nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/53 "2005-01-07T18:41:22Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > Please try not to discount the level or degree of anger, or the potential threat that could be felt by male residents of VA, either. Although he may not personally go to prison, **Mr. Moto** is in danger of losing his wife for up to a year if this legislation passes. That puts him in a position of having to face single parenthood, his children lose their mother, there’s likely a substantial loss of family income, loss of affection, and so on. The consequences for him and his family could be devastating. I suspect the level of anger and threat a man living in VA might feel could certainly equal that of a woman, even if the specific results aren’t identical for each. This is scary legislation for _all_ parties involved. You are absolutely right. If **Mr. Moto** tone down the Man Is Being Offended and I Must Defend stuff- I would show more compassion. None of my posts (or indeed the thrust of this thread) is vitriol directed at men as a whole. This Cosgrove dude–'nother ball of wax altogether… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/54 "2005-01-07T18:46:14Z")
A fair percentage of fertilized eggs never attach to the uterine wall and are flushed away, unnamed and unloved. Would Virginia require women to report every period to a funeral home so that a service can be held over the used tampon? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/55 "2005-01-07T18:47:46Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I am referring in my post(“tread carefully”) to the men who will post in this thread–not the population of Chesespeake Bay or other. And, yes, I do say tread carefully to the men here–YOU AREN’T THE ONES GOING TO BE ACCUSED OF A CLASS ONE FELONY IF YOUR MENSTRUAL CYCLE IS MESSED UP. I understand your anger, and this is the pit and you should be able to vent. You feel anger that one class of people i.e. (in this case) men, have a say in passing judgment about another class of people i.e. women of child bearing age, and passing a law that butts into something you feel is none of their business, and restricts your rights, and you’re pissed! But I can tell you as a gay man, who also has another class of people passing judgment and passing laws that restrict his rights, that telling heterosexuals to “TREAD LIGHTLY YOU AREN’T THE ONES WHO WANT TO MARRY SOMEONE OF THE SAME SEX AND HAVING THIS RIGHT OUTLAWED” isn’t going to help your case much. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/56 "2005-01-07T18:53:01Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I am referring in my post(“tread carefully”) to the men who will post in this thread–not the population of Chesespeake Bay or other. I can guarantee that the population of Chesapeake Bay doesn’t care about this. Fish don’t have periods or miscarriages. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/57 "2005-01-07T18:55:37Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I understand your anger, and this is the pit and you should be able to vent. You feel anger that one class of people i.e. (in this case) men, have a say in passing judgment about another class of people i.e. women of child bearing age, and passing a law that butts into something you feel is none of their business, and restricts your rights, and you’re pissed! > > But I can tell you as a gay man, who also has another class of people passing judgment and passing laws that restrict his rights, that telling heterosexuals to “TREAD LIGHTLY YOU AREN’T THE ONES WHO WANT TO MARRY SOMEONE OF THE SAME SEX AND HAVING THIS RIGHT OUTLAWED” isn’t going to help your case much. Thank you for understanding and restating it so succinctly. That is exactly what I am trying to say here. And I see what you mean by not helping–geesh, there are none so blind and all that! But I am left with a question: if I can see how your rights are violated and you can see mine–why can’t others see it too? Baffles me, really… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/58 "2005-01-07T19:04:29Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > In reply to which, I’ll just quote an esteemed Doper: > > - > > If so… too damn bad. It isn’t so, it isn’t going to BE so, and that’s that > \* You sure? President Bush is in office for four years. The Supreme Court is arguably one vote away from overturning Roe v. Wade. In fact, an argument heard frequently to encourage people to vote against Mr. Bush was that, if re-elected, he’d be in a position to appoint justices and overturn Roe. You so sure it isn’t going to be so? > [@](#): > > This proposed law is an attempt to cut off certain pro-choice arguments about the efficacy of anti-abortion laws. One of the pro-choice arguments is that anti-abortion laws are impossible and impractical because they would require “tracking” pregnancies and miscarriages. Ta da! My guess is that the Rep thinks that if this tracking were to go into effect, the pro-choicers would have one less argument. If that’s true… isn’t it valid? In other words, if the argument is that tracking is impossible or impractical, and this law goes into effect and shows that tracking is possible and practical, then isn’t that a good thing? I’m sure you wouldn’t want your cause to succeed based on an improper argument, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/59 "2005-01-07T19:08:00Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > I understand that you are on of those people. If a lump of fetal tissue at, say, four weeks is indeed a human being, should not a death certificate and proper burial be called for? No. Although if someone wanted to do that, I’d understand the sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/60 "2005-01-07T19:16:33Z")
> [@VunderBob](#): > > I can guarantee that the population of Chesapeake Bay doesn’t care about this. Fish don’t have periods or miscarriages. Cute. Chesapeake Bay area. **Bricker** --it can’t be tracked, b/c the people involved don’t often know when the condition occurs. I have had two such questionable miscarriages in my life–late, late periods, just where I’m thinking I should go get an OTC test and check and then boom. A slightly heavier period than normal. Was I pregnant? Who knows? I know I’m not a cirminal for undergoing a completely normal hormonal cycle. Early miscarriages aren’t tracked for this very reason. It’s impractical to test all women with late periods etc. Now, if a woman knows she is pregnant, and then miscarries–how is that a crime? Again, it’s a normal cycle. It is so common in the first 12 weeks that reporting it will take up alot of resources and money that are better used elsewhere. Now, one can argue the priorities, but that is the position of the CDC and public health. But to re-legislate the priorities? Doesnt make alot of sense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572.md?page=4)