# Failure to report miscarriage a crime in VA - proposed legislation **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572 "2005-01-07T15:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/81 "2005-01-07T23:41:49Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > OK, so I’m a little confused now. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me or simply clarifying that the answer to **lee** ’s question “Whose death am I requred to report now?” is “You are required to report any death of a post-viable infant, child or adult to the coroner or a funeral home, and they will be required to obtain a death certificate?” > > Sorry it took me a round-about way of getting here, but IANAL. I’m still not convinced that it’s illegal for me to bury a fetus in the backyard. Illinois has a law mandating that any body buried be buried at least 18 inches deep and in a box meeting certain characteristics (but breaking this law is a petty offense, the same as speeding), and there are some pretty strict rules relating to cremation, but I believe the definition of “body” here excludes fetuses. In addition, I still haven’t found anything that clearly prohibits a private burial on your own land – or, for that matter, leaving the body to lay whereever it was found, taking no action at all. I fear I lack the legal research tools (and time) to clearly determine what is required by Illinois law, but at this point I don’t think there’s any general duty to report a death even if the death is one that is reportable under the death certificate law. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/82 "2005-01-08T00:02:05Z")
[ > [@](#): > > QUOTE=KellyM]There is no obligation that I am aware of that requires a plain old citizen to report anything he or she witnesses. Obviously some people have jobs that require it of them (such as police officers and doctors) but not the general public. > > If you have a statute or decision that mandates this sort of reporting, I’d love to see it. It appears I may be wrong about the legal obligation. I am looking into it. In a larger sense I think my point prevails, however. I will respond when I have more information. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/83 "2005-01-08T06:21:03Z")
I’ve experienced four miscarriages. The last thing I can fathom is waking up in the middle of the night with cramps a couple of weeks after a positive home pregnancy test, going into the bathroom to discover that I’m bleeding and having to call 911 to report it. What’s that call supposed to be like. “Hi, I had a positive home pregnancy test two weeks ago, but there’s blood coursing from my vagina now, so I understand that I’m legally obligated to file some form.”? I would challenge anyone who is “reserving judgment” about this law or who things that there may be some justification for it to explain how the above scenario serves the best interests of _anybody_, how it would protect me or my potential children or anyone else, how it enhances anyone’s liberty or otherwise benefits anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/84 "2005-01-08T07:07:59Z")
If this law passes, I think that every sexually active menstruating woman should report any bleeding (including every monthly cycle) to the designated official as a potential miscarriage. That way women are taking no chances of a miscarriage going unreported. Just overwhelm the system to be on the safe side. Send copies, of course, to each Congressional Represenative’s office. ---
**Author:** ![gelid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/65b543/32.png) [@gelid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gelid)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/85 "2005-01-08T23:31:24Z")
I don’t post here often, and I have been an ex-pat for a few years, but reading these proposals by the more extreme fringes of the GOP just leaves me shaking with rage and frustration. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **The Devil’s Grandmother** > If this law passes, I think that every sexually active menstruating woman should report any bleeding (including every monthly cycle) to the designated official as a potential miscarriage. That way women are taking no chances of a miscarriage going unreported. Just overwhelm the system to be on the safe side. Send copies, of course, to each Congressional Represenative’s office. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Zoe** > May I suggest that all of the Virginia female dopers who are still menstruating send their used pads/tampons/cups/whatever directly to Congressman Cosgrove? Since he’s so interested, I’m sure he’ll test all of them for the presense of fetal tissue. Not a Virginia resident, but I can definitely get behind this effort. Bloody tampons? Check. Ziploc baggie? Check. Business-sized envelope? Check. Just need to run out for some air-mail stamps. Oh, and **TeaElle**? Thanks for posting your experience. May I point out that people like **Mr. Moto** , who has declared that > [@](#): > > I’ll reserve judgement on whether the law is needed. are unlikely to have any qualms with such a law until it is their wife or daughter on whom one is clamping the handcuffs. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/86 "2005-01-08T23:57:23Z")
> [@iampunha](#): > > What I could find on Google or [house.gov](http://house.gov) helped none in identifying if Cosgrove is up for re-election soon, which rules out that incentive. [house.gov](http://house.gov) has no record of the bill and [senate.gov](http://senate.gov) returned similar results. If anyone can figure out what “offered 01/12/05 051245276” means (it’s from the OP’s first cite), that might shed some light on this. [Here](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+mbr+H143) is the man’s page on the Virginia General Assembly Legislative Information System website. > > (I should mention, keeping in mind one of the MPSIMS stickies, that I link to that page not in the hope that folks will bombard the man with hate mail but so we can figure out just what’s going on here.) From the linked article… “No one ran against John Cosgrove in the 78th District in 2003. If you live in or near this district, please try to find someone to stand against him this year!” ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/87 "2005-01-09T00:48:47Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I haven’t checked out the links…but what would be the point? > > …worse for women who legitimately have a miscarriage and wanted the child? … Actually I think it may help some who have trouble by the state acknowleaging that a child was created. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/88 "2005-01-09T00:55:54Z")
Isn’t this an invasion of privacy as well as just being misogyonist, pointless and stupid? I don’t see how it could stand a constitutional challenge even if this slobbering cro-mag was to get this legislation passed. A lot of women never even know that they’ve miscarried. They never knew they were pregnant and they think they just had a heavy period. Somebody wants that to be a crime now? There isn’t the slightest justification for a law like this. There is no conceivable intent which will make not be slimy. Fuck anyone who defends it. ---
**Author:** ![gelid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/65b543/32.png) [@gelid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gelid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/89 "2005-01-09T01:08:40Z")
**The Devil’s Grandmother** and **Zoe** , I reversed your quotes in my post above. And they were both fabulous ones. _Mea culpa._ ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/90 "2005-01-09T03:25:02Z")
> [@gelid](#): > > Not a Virginia resident, but I can definitely get behind this effort. Bloody tampons? Check. Ziploc baggie? Check. Business-sized envelope? Check. Just need to run out for some air-mail stamps. I do hope this is limited only to spouting off on a message board. Actual mailing of this stuff is prohibited, and could land you in trouble with postal inspectors. Let’s be careful now, kids. > [@gelid](#): > > Oh, and **TeaElle**? Thanks for posting your experience. May I point out that people like **Mr. Moto** …are unlikely to have any qualms with such a law until it is their wife or daughter on whom one is clamping the handcuffs. You don’t know me very well. I’m not a knee-jerk conservative, and I will criticize other Republicans for genuine transgressions. I’ll also back up liberals when they’re treated unfairly. I’m reserving judgement because I don’t know what possible problem is being addressed by this law, so I won’t categorically defend or reject it until I do know. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/91 "2005-01-09T03:38:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You sure? President Bush is in office for four years. The Supreme Court is arguably one vote away from overturning Roe v. Wade. In fact, an argument heard frequently to encourage people to vote against Mr. Bush was that, if re-elected, he’d be in a position to appoint justices and overturn Roe. Two votes away, by my count. So what are you proposing? Do you propose we deliberately ignore the Constitution now in the hopes that Bush’s appointees will change it by the time it reaches the Supreme Court? ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/92 "2005-01-09T10:44:04Z")
I remember conservative Christina Hoff Summers making fun of feminists because they thought **The Handmaids Tale** was a possibility. This ultra right-wing stuff is not funny anymore. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mermaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@The\_Mermaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mermaid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/93 "2005-01-09T17:02:03Z")
I think the important word here is “viable” which I take to mean any fetus that is capable of surviving outside the womb. Generally this means any pregnancy over 28 weeks but some states have a legal definition of over 22 weeks. Early miscarriages would not fall in to this category. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/94 "2005-01-09T17:24:46Z")
> [@The Mermaid](#): > > I think the important word here is “viable” which I take to mean any fetus that is capable of surviving outside the womb. Generally this means any pregnancy over 28 weeks but some states have a legal definition of over 22 weeks. > > Early miscarriages would not fall in to this category. The word “viable” does not appear once in the Bill. I counted. Twice. Hey, it’s a public document, so I’m going to quote the whole thing here. Taken from [http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+ful+HB1677](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+ful+HB1677) on this date. > [@](#): > > ## 051245276 HOUSE BILL NO. 1677 Offered January 12, 2005 Prefiled December 17, 2004 A BILL to amend and reenact § 32.1-264 of the Code of Virginia, relating to reports of fetal deaths; penalty. > > ## Patron-- Cosgrove > > ## Committee Referral Pending > > Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia: > > 1. That § 32.1-264 of the Code of Virginia is amended and reenacted as follows: > > § 32.1-264. Reports of fetal deaths; medical certification; investigation by medical examiner; confidentiality of information concerning abortions; penalty. > > A. A fetal death report for each fetal death which occurs in this theCommonwealth shall be filed, on a form furnished by the State Registrar, with the registrar of the district in which the delivery occurred or the abortion was performed within three days after such delivery or abortion and shall be registered with such registrar if it has been completed and filed in accordance with this section; provided that: > > 1. If the place of fetal death is unknown, a fetal death report shall be filed in the registration district in which a dead fetus was found within three days after discovery of such fetus; and > > 2. If a fetal death occurs in a moving conveyance, a fetal death report shall be filed in the registration district in which the fetus was first removed from such conveyance. > > B. The funeral director or person who first assumes custody of a dead fetus or, in the absence of a funeral director or such person, the hospital representative who first assumes custody of a fetus shall file the fetal death report; in the absence of such a person, the physician or other person in attendance at or after the delivery or abortion shall file the report of fetal death. The person completing the forms shall obtain the personal data from the next of kin or the best qualified person or source available, and he shall obtain the medical certification of cause of death from the person responsible for preparing the same as provided in this section. In the case of induced abortion, such forms shall not identify the patient by name. > > C. The medical certification portion of the fetal death report shall be completed and signed within twenty-four 24 hours after delivery or abortion by the physician in attendance at or after delivery or abortion except when inquiry or investigation by a medical examiner is required. > > D. When a fetal death occurs without medical attendance upon the mother womanat or after the delivery or abortion or when inquiry or investigation by a medical examiner is required, the medical examiner shall investigate the cause of fetal death and shall complete and sign the medical certification portion of the fetal death report within twenty-four 24 hours after being notified of a fetal death. > > When a fetal death occurs without medical attendance, it shall be the woman’s responsibility to report the death to the law-enforcement agency in the jurisdiction of which the delivery occurs within 12 hours after the delivery. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor. > > E. The reports required pursuant to this section are statistical reports to be used only for medical and health purposes and shall not be incorporated into the permanent official records of the system of vital records. A schedule for the disposition of these reports may be provided by regulation. > > F. The physician or facility attending an individual who has delivered a dead fetus shall maintain a copy of the fetal death report for one year and, upon written request by the individual and payment of an appropriate fee, shall furnish the individual a copy of such report. The only slippery language is the use of the word “fetus”. Being all nitpicky and technical, “fetus” refers to an unborn human of 9 gestational weeks or later\*. This certainly includes many early miscarriages, especially of they “baby stopped growing at 7 weeks and mom didn’t start bleeding until 12 weeks,” which is very common. By the baby’s growth (which you don’t know unless you have an ultrasound) you’ve miscarried an embryo, not a fetus. By the number of weeks since you’re last period, you’d assume it was a fetus. Section E is what boils my blood. As I said before, “medical and health purposes,” my ass. Such information can be gained through voluntary programs that don’t make criminals out of grieving mothers. This is obviously a small step towards eroding abortion privacy regulations. Notice that “confidentiality of information concerning abortions” is listed, but only addressed in the bill by not requiring the mother’s name - only in the case of elective abortion? (Section B) So, by default, if your report doesn’t have your name, we can assume you had an elective abortion, you heartless bitch, and we have plenty of other personal information to figure out who you are. \*and to nitpick my own nitpick, no it doesn’t. “fetus” means a certain gestational age for all animals, and it varies. But I think we can assume the registrar doesn’t want to know when your dog miscarries. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/95 "2005-01-09T17:37:25Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Two votes away, by my count. So what are you proposing? Do you propose we deliberately ignore the Constitution now in the hopes that Bush’s appointees will change it by the time it reaches the Supreme Court? No. Go back and re-read what prompted my comment. I’m not in favor of this legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/96 "2005-01-09T17:44:26Z")
> [@The Mermaid](#): > > I think the important word here is “viable” which I take to mean any fetus that is capable of surviving outside the womb. Generally this means any pregnancy over 28 weeks but some states have a legal definition of over 22 weeks. > > Early miscarriages would not fall in to this category. The proposed legislation makes no mention of fetal age. Viablility does not come into play here; all pregnancies are subject to this law. > [@the OP's second link](#): > > In most states, health care providers must provide statistics on fetal deaths after 20 weeks gestation (or at a certain fetal weight approximating 20 weeks gestation). Virginia is one of only 7 states, however, that mandate the reporting of deaths of all “products of conception” regardless of gestational age. As several others have pointed out, very early miscarriages often occur before the woman even realizes she’s pregnant, so simply registering all pregnancies and mandating daily updates is clearly insufficient. To enforce this law properly, all Virginia women of childbearing age will need to file a report of each and every instance of heterosexual activity in case conception occurs, and submit followup reports of any subsequent menstrual periods, samples of which will be sent in for testing for embryonic tissue. Because there’s nothing more important than the children, and we wouldn’t want a single fertilized egg to pass through this world without proper recognition. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/97 "2005-01-09T17:51:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Actually I think it may help some who have trouble by the state acknowleaging that a child was created. But a child _wasn’t_ created. That is purely a religious belief and it’s a belief that the state has no right to validate. The government is not obligedto humor your religious fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mermaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@The\_Mermaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mermaid)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/98 "2005-01-09T18:12:40Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > OK, so I’m a little confused now. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me or simply clarifying that the answer to **lee** ’s question “Whose death am I requred to report now?” is “You are required to report any death of a \*\*post-viable \*\* infant, child or adult to the coroner or a funeral home, and they will be required to obtain a death certificate?” > > Sorry it took me a round-about way of getting here, but IANAL. I am sorry, I didn’t read the entire proposal and was responding to the response quoted above. As written, the proposal sounds uninforceable. Do they really want ALL fetal deaths reported regardless of gestational age? In what health or medical situation would that information be needed? The really suspicious part of me wants to know what the hell they are doing in Virginia to want this kind of information. I guess I’ve watched too many episodes of X-files. ---
**Author:** ![KSO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@KSO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KSO)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/99 "2005-01-09T19:44:11Z")
Most of this statute is already a law in Virginia and it looks like the first incarnation of it was passed in 1950. There have been several revisions to it over the years but this link doesn’t say what the changes were. The language requiring women to report non-medically attended miscarriages is new. [The current statute](http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+32.1-264) ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/100 "2005-01-09T21:03:55Z")
> [@PinkMarabou](#): > > If this passes, I think we as women should try to get a law passed that any time a man ejaculates and it is not DIRECTLY to procreate (that includes masturbation and wet dreams), he should report it to the authorities that he has killed millions of babies. It’s only fair . . . > > :rolleyes: I just came into the thread to post this very idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572.md?page=6)