# Failure to report miscarriage a crime in VA - proposed legislation **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 7, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572 "2005-01-07T15:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/101 "2005-01-10T17:32:16Z")
I just wanted to post an update to this story. Apparently Delegate Cosgrove is guilty of using vague wording. [Here’s a link to his response](http://democracyforvirginia.typepad.com/democracy_for_virginia/2005/01/eternal_vigilan.html) on the earlier linked site. Here’s some excerpts if you don’t want to follow the link: > [@](#): > > This bill was requested by the Chesapeake Police Department in its legislative package **due to instances of full term babies who were abandoned shortly after birth.** These poor children died horrible deaths. If a coroner could not determine if the child was born alive, the person responsible for abandoning the child could only be charged with is the improper disposal of a human body. This is all well and good if there was no law in place to better cover legal actions in these instances. and > [@](#): > > However, after discussing the bill again with our legislative services lawyers, **I have decided to include language that will define the bill to apply only to those babies that are claimed to have been stillborn and that are abandoned as stated above**. > I would never inflict the type of emotional torture on a woman who has suffered such a traumatic event as a miscarriage by making her notify authorities of her loss. I would also never impose criminal sanctions on a woman who has gone through this loss. So it seems his intentions were good, however his wording was not well thought out. If his initial intentions were not really what he has stated above but something more sinister in the hope that they could later turn the law to more nefarious purposes, then at least the hue and cry over this has stopped that outrage and forced him to rephrase his bill to something more acceptable and worthwhile. So, we can hold off on the mailing of used feminine napkins and tampons to Delegate Cosgrove … for now. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/102 "2005-01-10T17:45:09Z")
Great. Now what am I supposed to do with all these full condoms? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/103 "2005-01-10T17:45:36Z")
Thanks for the update. Yes, I feel much better now, although I’ll still be watching this closely. I’d like to see how he changes the wording of the bill to more carefully address the problem he’s trying to address. (On the other hand, is a baby dumpin’ mom likely to care about this bill? And report her own baby’s dumping in time for the coroner to determine the cause of death? Sheesh. Seems like changing tax laws to nab Mob Bosses on tax evasion charges.) Really, as a lawmaker, he should be extra careful with his language, no? Simply stating “viable” or “fetus of 26 or more gestational weeks” would have made most of this Pitting moot. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/104 "2005-01-10T17:47:23Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Great. Now what am I supposed to do with all these full condoms? Whip up a batch of pan fried semen, of course! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/105 "2005-01-10T17:54:43Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Thanks for the update. Yes, I feel much better now, although I’ll still be watching this closely. I’d like to see how he changes the wording of the bill to more carefully address the problem he’s trying to address. > > (On the other hand, is a baby dumpin’ mom likely to care about this bill? And report her own baby’s dumping in time for the coroner to determine the cause of death? Sheesh. Seems like changing tax laws to nab Mob Bosses on tax evasion charges.). I don’t think he expects it to stop this from happening but the point is that there would be something more to charge these women with other than improper disposal of a human body. > [@WhyNot](#): > > Really, as a lawmaker, he should be extra careful with his language, no? Simply stating “viable” or “fetus of 26 or more gestational weeks” would have made most of this Pitting moot. Which is why I think there may have been some intention for them to later use the law for other purposes. In which case then it’s a good thing he was called on it and forced to use more specific wording. It almost restores your faith in the democratic system when the representatives actually listen to the people once in a while. I did say “almost”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/106 "2005-01-10T17:56:48Z")
> [@Wile E](#): > > This is all well and good if there was no law in place to better cover legal actions in these instances. But of course there was, and is. Child neglect and manslaughter come to mind. > [@](#): > > So, we can hold off on the mailing of used feminine napkins and tampons to Delegate Cosgrove … for now. Maybe we’d better do it anyway just to remind him. Be fun. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/107 "2005-01-10T18:07:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But of course there was, and is. Child neglect and manslaughter come to mind. But his assertion in the linked email (I don’t know if this is correct or not) is that after 12 hours, a coroner cannot determine whether a baby was stillborn or died after birth. So all a baby dumping mom has to do is say it was “stillborn” and they can’t prove otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/108 "2005-01-10T18:09:11Z")
I’m afraid that the first thing I saw when I saw the OP was that this law wasn’t about first or second trimester losses, but about cases where there was a question of stillbirth vs manslaughter/murder. I’m not sure what this law will achieve that current laws don’t, however, it’s obvious that the politician concerned didn’t bother to consult any medical professionals while coming up with the initial wording. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/109 "2005-01-10T18:09:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > But of course there was, and is. Child neglect and manslaughter come to mind. You can’t charge her with child neglect or manslaughter unless you can prove that a child was actually born. If you can’t prove that the child was not a stillborn, you can’t prove that there was ever a child to neglect or a person to manslaughter. Illinois’ solution to this problem was to allow a woman to turn her child over to the state, no questions asked, by leaving it at a fire station, hospital, or certain other places where the child’s safety would not be endangered. Such children become wards of the state without any attempt to collect child support from either mother or father. This is expensive for the state, but saves lives; the tradeoff is deemed worth it. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/110 "2005-01-10T18:38:17Z")
Well, it is nice to see that voices can be heard and attended to. Kudos to Cosgrove. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/111 "2005-01-10T19:10:11Z")
Hmm. The explanation tracks almost exactly with what I thought might be the case, in my first post in this thread. I’m happy the matter will be clarified before a vote. To all those who accused me of being a horrible, horrible person, just because my knee didn’t jerk immediately, I’d like to offer a heartfelt “fuck you.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/112 "2005-01-10T19:26:09Z")
Nope. Our reactions were completely justified under the original language. The guy _changed_ it. We were still right and he was still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/113 "2005-01-10T19:42:24Z")
Your reaction to Delagate Cosgrove may have been justified, **Diogenes** , if a bit over the top. The reaction against me wasn’t, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/114 "2005-01-10T20:09:56Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Well, it is nice to see that voices can be heard and attended to. > > Kudos to Cosgrove. Yeah, wait til you see today’s front page of the local paper: [Proposal Targets Same-Sex Marriage](http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=80310&ran=105799). Kudos my skinny white hetro ass. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/115 "2005-01-11T03:07:47Z")
> [@Sean Factotum](#): > > Yeah, wait til you see today’s front page of the local paper: [Proposal Targets Same-Sex Marriage](http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=80310&ran=105799). > Kudos my skinny white hetro ass. Well, isn’t he just a busy little bee? But that’s a whole 'nother pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/116 "2005-01-11T14:14:30Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Whip up a batch of pan fried semen, of course! 😃 Mmmm… Just like Grandma used to make it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/117 "2005-01-11T14:59:49Z")
Okay, send him the used tampons _and_ the santorum-soaked Kleenex. ---
**Author:** ![gelid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/65b543/32.png) [@gelid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gelid)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/118 "2005-01-11T18:00:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Mr. Moto** > To all those who accused me of being a horrible, horrible person, just because my knee didn’t jerk immediately, I’d like to offer a heartfelt “fuck you.” Like many of the more regular posters (which I am clearly not), I have been exposed to enough of **Mr. Moto** ’s posts to know about his desire to see abortion illegalised in the USA . I still believe that any reaction to the original Cosgrove bill, with the _original wording_, which was any less than horrified, indicates willful ignorance of just how far the far-far-right may be willing to go to punish women at the expense of a fetus/unborn child. That Cosgrove pulled a U-turn does not necessarily mean, as others have pointed out, that his original intentions were any less sinister than anyone here supposed. Not having accused anyone of being a “horrible, horrible person,” but most definitely having accused **Mr. Moto** of being someone so married to his own ideology that he is incapable of even _imagining_ the ways in which such a law could potentially hurt other people, and women in particular, I stand by my original assessment that > [@](#): > > people like Mr. Moto…are unlikely to have any qualms with such a law until it is their wife or daughter on whom one is clamping the handcuffs. Furthermore, I offer **Mr. Moto** no "heartfelt ‘fuck you’ " in return, but rather my hope that someday his eyes may be opened to some of the reasons that make this issue such an emotional one not only for him, but also for those who hold opinions contrary to his own. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/119 "2005-01-11T18:27:52Z")
If I had no qualms about this legislation, as you claim, why did I not state right off the bat that I supported it wholeheartedly? It’s clear that I did no such thing, your assertions to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572/120 "2005-01-11T19:03:32Z")
No, **Mr. Moto** , you just looked at something utterly inexcusable and waffled. You lacked the decency to recognize an invasive, overreaching, overly broad and excruciatingly vague excuse for government to intrude upon citizens’ most private anguish for what it was. I’m not angry. I’m sad. And a little disgusted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/failure-to-report-miscarriage-a-crime-in-va-proposed-legislation/283572.md?page=7)