# Fairies' fear of iron -- memory of Iron v. Bronze? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112 "2009-05-20T20:45:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/1 "2009-05-20T20:45:39Z")
In Western European folklore, fairies cannot touch [cold iron.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_iron) I have a hypothesis about that: These “fairies” are distant cultural memories of Bronze Age peoples of Europe who were conquered by other peoples who had learned to forge superior iron weapons, thus, iron was their bane. Is this plausible? Has it ever been floated before? ---
**Author:** ![Imaginary\_Fiend](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f6c823/32.png) [@Imaginary\_Fiend](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imaginary_Fiend)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/2 "2009-05-20T21:28:20Z")
Not likely unless you lump witches, demons, ghosts, and other things that go bump in the night into the broad classification of “faerie.” Even in the Wikipedia cite you provide, it’s pretty clear that the wee folk aren’t the only one with the allergy. If you were to reframe the question something more along the lines of “Is it possible that cold iron derives its mystical properties of protection from iron weaponry’s general superiority to bronze or copper weaponry?” then you might have some case for a theory involving historical basis for the superstition, but, then again, you might not. The origin of folklore is notoriously difficult to verify. [This cite](http://books.google.com/books?id=qp-4csuTM8MC&pg=PA246&lpg=PA246&dq=cold+iron+superstitions&source=bl&ots=DZhhG810qZ&sig=SBUFcIA7qsEvG7qHc9ENl40gHl4&hl=en&ei=lnQUSpLGEYSa9QTakbyMBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPA246,M1) seems to support the thesis that cold iron was magical just because it was easy to come by. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/3 "2009-05-20T21:36:29Z")
**Imaginary Fiend** , just so you know, this message board doesn’t support HTML. Instead, we use [BB code](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/misc.php?do=bbcode), with the square brackets instead of chevrons. Back to the subject at hand…I’ve read somewhere (my primary source for all knowledge) that bronze actually makes superior weaponry, and iron came into use because it’s more common. It’s easy, too, to come by a scrap of iron. Old horseshoes, old nails, odd bits of hardware are common and can be placed above a door or on a windowsill, and the people inside can feel safe from supernatural beasties. More malevolent critters need the more magically powerful silver, which is expensive enough to be a sacrifice, but not so expensive that people can’t spare it when they fear that a vampire is lurking in the neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/4 "2009-05-20T21:40:58Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > **Imaginary Fiend** , just so you know, this message board doesn’t support HTML. Instead, we use [BB code](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/misc.php?do=bbcode), with the square brackets instead of chevrons. They’re called ‘less than’ and ‘greater than’ signs. Humph. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/5 "2009-05-20T21:54:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > They’re called ‘less than’ and ‘greater than’ signs. Humph. I thought they were called carets. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/6 "2009-05-20T22:04:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In Western European folklore, fairies cannot touch [cold iron.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_iron) I have a hypothesis about that: These “fairies” are distant cultural memories of Bronze Age peoples of Europe who were conquered by other peoples who had learned to forge superior iron weapons, thus, iron was their bane. Is this plausible? Has it ever been floated before? Because fairies are wood spirits, and iron chops into wood, it cuts their plant off from it’s root thus severing the wood spirit from its connection to the Earth. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/7 "2009-05-20T22:05:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > They’re called ‘less than’ and ‘greater than’ signs. Humph. Chevrons is a much more elegant term. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/8 "2009-05-20T22:19:41Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Because fairies are wood spirits, and iron chops into wood, it cuts their plant off from it’s root thus severing the wood spirit from its connection to the Earth. 😉 Ah yes, and the wood is then turned into paper, which covers stone… And I thought the caret was the symbol over the 6 key. Or is that a hat? What covers stone again? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/9 "2009-05-20T22:23:54Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > What covers stone again? Lizard, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/10 "2009-05-20T22:25:16Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Ah yes, and the wood is then turned into paper, which covers stone… > And I thought the caret was the symbol over the 6 key. Or is that a hat? What covers stone again? And lets not drag Vulcans and/or reptiles into this… ETA: /me shakes fist at **JayJay** ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/11 "2009-05-20T22:33:57Z")
Lest the OP think we’re not taking his thesis seriously, I think that the reason we’re not taking his thesis seriously is because it seems pretty unlikely to be correct. It’s hard to mistake a bronze-weilding human warrior for a brownie or a fairy. It crosses my mind to propose an alternate theory, based on the fact it’s usually not just “iron” that’s the fairybane, it’s “_cold_ iron”. Perhaps iron had a higher thermal conductivity than most other things around, and thus (even at room temperature) seemed to ‘suck the heat away’ when touched…perhaps leading to the belief it was draining away ‘life force’? And if fairies were considered to be less anchored in the mortal plane than a mortal, that might be a problem for them. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/12 "2009-05-20T22:34:23Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > And lets not drag Vulcans and/or reptiles into this… > > ETA: /me shakes fist at **JayJay** Nyah-nyah! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/13 "2009-05-20T22:35:25Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Lest the OP think we’re not taking his thesis seriously, I think that the reason we’re not taking his thesis seriously is because it seems pretty unlikely to be correct. It’s hard to mistake a bronze-weilding human warrior for a brownie or a fairy. > > It crosses my mind to propose an alternate theory, based on the fact it’s usually not just “iron” that’s the fairybane, it’s “_cold_ iron”. Perhaps iron had a higher thermal conductivity than most other things around, and thus (even at room temperature) seemed to ‘suck the heat away’ when touched…perhaps leading to the belief it was draining away ‘life force’? And if fairies were considered to be less anchored in the mortal plane than a mortal, that might be a problem for them. “Cold iron” doesn’t mean “iron of a low ambient temperature”. It means “iron that was shaped without forging”. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/14 "2009-05-20T22:37:53Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > “Cold iron” doesn’t mean “iron of a low ambient temperature”. It means “iron that was shaped without forging”. Really? I have _never_ heard that - and I have never heard of anybody being picky about the history of their iron object before they used it to ward off evil. (And what can you make with iron without using a forge of some kind? Blacksmiths had forges, didn’t they?) ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/15 "2009-05-20T22:44:29Z")
I always though that iron protected against the supernatural because it represents humanity’s mastery over world. While faeries, demons, etc rely on primal emotions and simple magic for power, humans work their will via knowledge\* and hard work. A worked piece of iron embodies both of these principles. Note that it’s always wrought iron that is protective. A lump of raw iron ore is a part of nature, not of the world of humans. I’m not sure what the cold part of “cold iron” refers to. I don’t think it means cold-wrought, because iron is too brittle to work when cold. When it refers to a finished iron product, called “cold” because it’s no longer at the forge. Forges have their own magic, and so maybe the qualifier is needed to distinguish the magic of a finished iron work versus that one still being worked. I prefer the term “angle bracket”, but the [Wikipedia entry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracket) also supports “chevron”, and others. \*Edit: I forgot to add: This principle can be seen in the magic of names. A unnamed thing is unknown and frightening. Once it is named (that is, the first step to adding it to the domain of human understanding), it becomes known and subject to a human’s power. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/16 "2009-05-20T22:49:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Really? I have _never_ heard that - and I have never heard of anybody being picky about the history of their iron object before they used it to ward off evil. > > (And what can you make with iron without using a forge of some kind? Blacksmiths had forges, didn’t they?) You can work iron or steel stock cold on an anvil. It’s more effort than working hot metal, but it can be a fair trade-off for not being tied to a forge (or in these modern times, having to schlep a forge around). Of course, if we’re going to be pedantic, _someone_ had to to heat that metal to make that stock so you could work it cold, but we wouldn’t be pedantic here on the SD, would we?😉 ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/17 "2009-05-20T22:53:33Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > You can work iron or steel stock cold on an anvil. It’s more effort than working hot metal, but it can be a fair trade-off for not being tied to a forge (or in these modern times, having to schlep a forge around). > > Of course, if we’re going to be pedantic, _someone_ had to to heat that metal to make that stock so you could work it cold, but we wouldn’t be pedantic here on the SD, would we?😉 Fair enough - though I bet that most of the nails, horseshoes, etc that were used as protection weren’t “cold iron” by that definition. Wouldn’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/18 "2009-05-20T22:57:46Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Lest the OP think we’re not taking his thesis seriously, I think that the reason we’re not taking his thesis seriously is because it seems pretty unlikely to be correct. It’s hard to mistake a bronze-weilding human warrior for a brownie or a fairy. Maybe so, but as I understand it, in Irish folklore the fairies are more or less identified with the peoples who lived in Ireland before the Celtic [Milesians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milesians_(Irish)) came – the [Fir Bolg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg) and the [Tuatha de Danaan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_D%C3%A9_Danann). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/19 "2009-05-20T23:03:54Z")
See also [here:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairies#A_hidden_people) > [@](#): > > One common theme found among the Celtic nations describes a race of diminutive people who had been driven into hiding by invading humans. They came to be seen as another race, or possibly spirits, and were believed to live in an Otherworld that was variously described as existing underground, in hidden hills (many of which were ancient burial mounds), or across the Western Sea.[4] > > In old Celtic faery lore the sidhe (fairy folk) are immortals living in the ancient barrows and cairns. The Tuatha de Danaan are associated with several Otherworld realms including Mag Mell (the Pleasant Plain), Emain Ablach (the Fortress of Apples or the Land of Promise or the Isle of Women), and the Tir na nÓg (the Land of Youth).[33] > > The concept of the Otherworld is also associated with the Isle of Apples, known as Avalon in the Arthurian mythos (often equated with Ablach Emain). Here we find the Silver Bough that allowed a living mortal to enter and withdraw from the Otherworld. According to legend, the Faery Queen sometimes offered the branch to worthy mortals, granting them safe passage and food during their stay. > > Some 19th century archaeologists thought they had found underground rooms in the Orkney islands resembling the Elfland in Childe Rowland.[34] In popular folklore, flint arrowheads from the Stone Age were attributed to the fairies as “elf-shot”.[35] **The fairies fear of iron was attributed to the invaders having iron weapons, whereas the inhabitants had only flint and were therefore easily defeated in physical battle.** Their green clothing and underground homes were credited to their need to hide and camouflage themselves from hostile humans, and their use of magic a necessary skill for combating those with superior weaponry.[4] In Victorian beliefs of evolution, cannibalism among “ogres” was attributed to memories of more savage races, still practicing it alongside “superior” races that had abandoned it.[36] Selkies, described in fairy tales as shapeshifting seal people, were attributed to memories of skin-clad “primitive” people traveling in kayaks.[4] African pygmies were put forth as an example of a race that had previously existed over larger stretches of territory, but come to be scarce and semi-mythical with the passage of time and prominence of other tribes and races.[37] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/20 "2009-05-20T23:05:28Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I always though that iron protected against the supernatural because it represents humanity’s mastery over world. While faeries, demons, etc rely on primal emotions and simple magic for power, humans work their will via knowledge\* and hard work. A worked piece of iron embodies both of these principles. Note that it’s always wrought iron that is protective. A lump of raw iron ore is a part of nature, not of the world of humans. That’s what I thought as well. I recall a novel called _The Logical Magician_ that had an interesting take on this. In it, it’s a plot point that a few centuries ago iron stopped working on faeries - because, it turns out iron become too common and was no longer symbolic of humanity’s mastery over nature. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112.md?page=2)