# Fairies' fear of iron -- memory of Iron v. Bronze? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112 "2009-05-20T20:45:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/21 "2009-05-20T23:10:07Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Back to the subject at hand…I’ve read somewhere (my primary source for all knowledge) that bronze actually makes superior weaponry, and iron came into use because it’s more common. Iron is a lot better because it’s less likely to break or bend than a bronze weapon. Typically the development of bronze predated iron. So the odds of people switching to iron because there was a bunch of iron nails sitting around probably isn’t true. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/22 "2009-05-20T23:40:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Has it ever been floated before? You’re not the first. T. H. White also floats this idea in _The Once and Future King_ (probably in the _Sword in the Stone_ section, but I don’t remember for sure). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/23 "2009-05-21T00:04:39Z")
one of the earliest sources of pure iron would be meteorites. iron from heaven? sounds magical to me. connection? ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/24 "2009-05-21T00:27:51Z")
[QUOTE=Lynn Bodoni] I’ve read somewhere (my primary source for all knowledge) that bronze actually makes superior weaponry, and iron came into use because it’s more common. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Odesio] Iron is a lot better because it’s less likely to break or bend than a bronze weapon. Typically the development of bronze predated iron. So the odds of people switching to iron because there was a bunch of iron nails sitting around probably isn’t true. [/QUOTE] It’s a little more complicated than that. Early, charcoal-smelted iron can be very low in carbon and it’s soft. Similar to the ultra-mild steel used for car bodywork, but without even the manganese additions which give ultra-mild some strength. Romans writings described the Celts as having to straighten their iron swords out with their feet whenever they got a spare moment in battle. OTOH, with more refined smelting techniques, charcoal-smelted iron can have medium or high carbon levels, making it heat-treatable by quenching and tempering. The renown Japanese katana is made from charcoal-smelted iron (actually steel, although the nomenclature for iron and steels is fuzzy and pretty illogical) using a low-carbon core, high-carbon cutting edge and medium-carbon spine and cheeks. And it beats the hell out anything you can do with bronze. Bronze probably predates iron because it’s easier to smelt - copper and tin ores are readily reduced by simple heating, and at lower temperatures than iron. Iron ores need carbon-monoxide at high temperatures to reduce them, but once you master that trick, the iron ores are very much more abundant than those of copper and tin. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/25 "2009-05-21T00:31:52Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Typically the development of bronze predated iron. So the odds of people switching to iron because there was a bunch of iron nails sitting around probably isn’t true. Nobody’s suggested that people switched to iron because there were a bunch of nails lying around. What Lynn said was that people switched to iron because it was more common. The materials to make bronze area fairly rare, which is why copper, tin and zinc are some of the most expensive metals in the world. In contrast iron makes up most of the planet. In the bronze age most soldiers had spears because it enabled a little precious bronze to make a usable weapon. Once iron production got into full swing the sword became the standard weapon because it’s more effective. There were numerous reasons why iron replaced bronze. Utillity is part of the reason but there seems little doubt that availability was also very important. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/26 "2009-05-21T01:28:04Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > one of the earliest sources of pure iron would be meteorites. > > iron from heaven? sounds magical to me. > > connection? Meteoric iron is often portrayed as having special properties, but I haven’t heard of it being considered the same as cold iron. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/27 "2009-05-21T01:50:33Z")
> [@](#): > > In contrast iron makes up most of the planet. True but misleading, since most of the iron in the Earth is down in the core where it’s inaccessible. What’s really important is abundance in the _crust_ of the Earth. The most common metallic element in the crust of the Earth is actually aluminum (explaining why it’s used for so many things nowadays), but aluminum is far harder to refine even than iron. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/28 "2009-05-21T02:40:52Z")
As I seem never to get tired of saying, when the man I get my last name from, Ir, helped conquer Ireland, in revenge for the killing of Galamh, his father, he and his brothers gave the people of Danu hell, until they sued for peace. And they entreated the Milesians, begged for mercy. Why, they offered to give up half the island… and let the Milesians choose which half. We chose the top half. And so, the people of Danu went Underhill. (Yes, it’s all myth, but it’s fairly darn old myth, going back to possibly the second century. My last name is a corruption of O’h-Ir. And just because it’s myth doesn’t mean it’s not partially true.) ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/29 "2009-05-21T02:40:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > …aluminum is far harder to refine even than iron. Effectively impossible with pre-industrial tehcnology, yeah? Which probably explains why it wasn’t used much. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/30 "2009-05-21T02:54:41Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > As I seem never to get tired of saying, when the man I get my last name from, Ir, helped conquer Ireland, in revenge for the killing of Galamh, his father, he and his brothers gave the people of Danu hell, until they sued for peace. And they entreated the Milesians, begged for mercy. Why, they offered to give up half the island… and let the Milesians choose which half. > We chose the top half. And so, the people of Danu went Underhill. > > (Yes, it’s all myth, but it’s fairly darn old myth, going back to possibly the second century. My last name is a corruption of O’h-Ir. And just because it’s myth doesn’t mean it’s not partially true.) I hope the poor Danu were at least allowed to keep their festive multi-colored marshmallows. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/31 "2009-05-21T03:01:23Z")
On second thought, the above Irish myth actually might be a delicate way of saying that the Danu were in fact put . . . _ahem_ . . . underground. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/32 "2009-05-21T07:09:36Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > “Cold iron” doesn’t mean “iron of a low ambient temperature”. It means “iron that was shaped without forging”. I think this is a modern fantasy backsplanation, as is the “cold iron” = “meteor iron” one. Compare “cold steel”, as in “give them a taste of…”. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/33 "2009-05-21T10:17:38Z")
The ‘shaped without forging’ is entirely a WoD rules thing, to make it all scary and special. And BG? Not so much. For one thing, they were still around. For another thing, it’s not like we would have been all that uncomfortable about saying ‘And then we killed them all.’ Cause, you know, what people did. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/34 "2009-05-21T12:27:45Z")
> [@](#): > > In contrast iron makes up most of the planet. In the bronze age most soldiers had spears because it enabled a little precious bronze to make a usable weapon. Once iron production got into full swing the sword became the standard weapon because it’s more effective. Spears were the dominant battlefield weapon. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/35 "2009-05-21T12:55:01Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > The ‘shaped without forging’ is entirely a WoD rules thing, to make it all scary and special. > > And BG? Not so much. For one thing, they were still around. For another thing, it’s not like we would have been all that uncomfortable about saying ‘And then we killed them all.’ Cause, you know, what people did. Like **MrDibble** posted, it’s probably a generic fantasy genre thing that I thought was actually historical, since I’ve never played Changeling. Ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/36 "2009-05-21T13:15:02Z")
If the conflict between Bronze and Iron Age cultures were represented in fairy folklore, one might expect fairies to be characterized as wielding bronze weapons, rather than the flint ‘elf-shot’ they are traditionally held to use. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See also [here:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairies#A_hidden_people) The highlighted part seems to offer a pretty reasonable hypothesis for antipathy to iron among the fey folk. “What the hell are all these pointy things we keep plowing up in the fields all the time? They look like spearpoints and arrowheads, but they’re made of stone instead of iron!” “Ah, but no mortal man would prefer to make weapons out of stone rather than iron. Therefore, some otherworldly beings must be responsible. But why would they make their weapons out of stone instead of iron? Clearly, these otherworldly beings don’t like iron for some reason…” “But, Conán… couldn’t these arrowheads have been made by some other race of humans, perhaps long ago, when they didn’t know how to craft iron weapons?” “Don’t be ridiculous, Óceallaigh. We’re as ignorant as it’s possible to be, and even we know how to make iron. No, once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. Obviously, these weapons were crafted by a race of invisible nonhuman beings with an allergy to iron.” ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/37 "2009-05-21T13:23:54Z")
My question: when the Celts arrived in Ireland, did they wipe out the local people? This migh be the explanation for the disappearence of the fairies, leprechauns, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/38 "2009-05-21T14:45:25Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > If the conflict between Bronze and Iron Age cultures were represented in fairy folklore, one might expect fairies to be characterized as wielding bronze weapons, rather than the flint ‘elf-shot’ they are traditionally held to use. > > The highlighted part seems to offer a pretty reasonable hypothesis for antipathy to iron among the fey folk. > > “What the hell are all these pointy things we keep plowing up in the fields all the time? They look like spearpoints and arrowheads, but they’re made of stone instead of iron!” > > “Ah, but no mortal man would prefer to make weapons out of stone rather than iron. Therefore, some otherworldly beings must be responsible. But why would they make their weapons out of stone instead of iron? Clearly, these otherworldly beings don’t like iron for some reason…” > > “But, Conán… couldn’t these arrowheads have been made by some other race of humans, perhaps long ago, when they didn’t know how to craft iron weapons?” > > “Don’t be ridiculous, Óceallaigh. We’re as ignorant as it’s possible to be, and even we know how to make iron. No, once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. Obviously, these weapons were crafted by a race of invisible nonhuman beings with an allergy to iron.” This post is a thing of beauty! Especially the last paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Norder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4af34b/32.png) [@Dan\_Norder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Norder)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/39 "2009-05-21T20:47:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > It crosses my mind to propose an alternate theory, based on the fact it’s usually not just “iron” that’s the fairybane, it’s “_cold_ iron”. No, it’s usually iron. The references to “cold iron” are a relatively modern phenomenon. It’s not likely that old folklore was based upon special meaning from a term found mostly in modern fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/40 "2009-05-21T21:25:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Lest the OP think we’re not taking his thesis seriously, I think that the reason we’re not taking his thesis seriously is because it seems pretty unlikely to be correct. It’s hard to mistake a bronze-weilding human warrior for a brownie or a fairy. Why? The Irish sidhe supposedly look almost identical to people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112.md?page=3)