# Fairies' fear of iron -- memory of Iron v. Bronze? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112 "2009-05-20T20:45:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/41 "2009-05-22T01:17:15Z")
Good question **Captain** , except for the awkward part about the _aes sídhe_ not being real. 😉 Going with **BG** ’s “The Victorians Made it Up” link with a shout out to **Terrifel** ’s scenario. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/42 "2009-05-22T02:06:20Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > If the conflict between Bronze and Iron Age cultures were represented in fairy folklore, one might expect fairies to be characterized as wielding bronze weapons, rather than the flint ‘elf-shot’ they are traditionally held to use. > > The highlighted part seems to offer a pretty reasonable hypothesis for antipathy to iron among the fey folk. > > “What the hell are all these pointy things we keep plowing up in the fields all the time? They look like spearpoints and arrowheads, but they’re made of stone instead of iron!” > > “Ah, but no mortal man would prefer to make weapons out of stone rather than iron. Therefore, some otherworldly beings must be responsible. But why would they make their weapons out of stone instead of iron? Clearly, these otherworldly beings don’t like iron for some reason…” > > “But, Conán… couldn’t these arrowheads have been made by some other race of humans, perhaps long ago, when they didn’t know how to craft iron weapons?” > > “Don’t be ridiculous, Óceallaigh. We’re as ignorant as it’s possible to be, and even we know how to make iron. No, once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth. Obviously, these weapons were crafted by a race of invisible nonhuman beings with an allergy to iron.” Amazing. Now explain again how sheep’s bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/43 "2009-05-22T02:07:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In Western European folklore, fairies cannot touch [cold iron.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_iron) I have a hypothesis about that: These “fairies” are distant cultural memories of Bronze Age peoples of Europe who were conquered by other peoples who had learned to forge superior iron weapons, thus, iron was their bane. Is this plausible? Has it ever been floated before? It may simply have gone from a folk distaining cold steel, to fearing it in the translation. Take a population of people that are tied to the land, as opposed to the more nomadic or hunter type populations and they might be the proto enviromentalists. Im sure that the early mining of iron ore was probably done somewhat underground, but I am also probably sure that simple open pit mining or strip mining also may have been involved. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/44 "2009-05-22T02:34:17Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Good question **Captain** , except for the awkward part about the _aes sídhe_ not being real. 😉 Unicorns aren’t real either, but I know that you need a virgin to capture one. Even though the _aes sídhe_ are myths, they still have certain characteristics in the myth, and in the myth (from the Book of the Taking of Ireland), they’re a race of people inhabiting Ireland who were defeated in battle by the Gaels and forced underground. So it’s not ridiculous on its face to see the legend being based on the actual Iron age Celtic invasion of Ireland and their conquest of a pre iron age people. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/45 "2009-05-22T02:57:14Z")
Sorry, **Cap’n** , but I was Archaeology, not Cultural Anthro. Come back when you find some artifacts. 😉 IOW, thus my winkie in my original post. Oh, you can point them out as being described as being “the people of the mounds.” Yes, absolutely, they could be them. However, in most cases, a culture that uses a technology that CAN become supplanted by a new technology adopts the new one as soon as they get together the trade goods to buy it, copies the new as best as they can with the old, or just steal it. In Britain and Northern Europe stylistic copies of bronze points in stone existed alongside the metallic ones for some time. Iron working was a technology, not the basis for a culture, and was adopted as soon as the invadees could steal it. Only the oldest and crankiest hewed to the old tech and, maybe, made up myths about it. While bronze tools gave an advantage, it was a matter of degree; this wasn’t stone tools vs A-bombs. And, as mentioned above, at first iron tools had their advantage in quantity, not quality. And where is the evidence that the term “cold iron,” and its usefulness against the Wee (or not so wee) Folk, existed before the 19th century? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/46 "2009-05-22T03:40:30Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > While bronze tools gave an advantage, it was a matter of degree; this wasn’t stone tools vs A-bombs. And, as mentioned above, at first iron tools had their advantage in quantity, not quality. Just to nitpick, but you mean iron tools gave an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/47 "2009-05-22T03:45:28Z")
Only in quantity and cost. Bronze blades kept an edge longer. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/48 "2009-05-22T03:50:23Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Only in quantity and cost. Bronze blades kept an edge longer. But you could grind the edge of an iron tool which didn’t work so well with bronze tools. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/49 "2009-05-22T03:59:23Z")
Yeah, but, as someone mentioned, the Roman soldiers laughed at the iron swords of the Celts because they were not as stiff as Proper Roman (partially-steel) Swords. At the start, before metallurgy got better and ignoring its commonness, iron had little to recommend it. However, those two factors pushed bronze to the second tier. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/50 "2009-05-22T08:55:39Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > Im sure that the early mining of iron ore was probably done somewhat underground, but I am also probably sure that simple open pit mining or strip mining also may have been involved. Neither. You can often just pick iron ore up from the ground, either as the aforementioned meteorites, [bog iron](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bog_iron) or [hardpan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laterite). While the latter two are not the most economical of ores in modern processes, they had the advantages of being easy to find and including silica, which is actually a plus (in small amounts) for bloomery iron ore production (wrought iron). This is not to say mining wasn’t done, just that it wasn’t the \*usual \*way for the [early production](http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/bog_iron.htm). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/51 "2009-05-22T18:33:30Z")
Fairies are though to be free spirits, iron is a symbol of oppression and imprisonment, the worst fear of a fairy. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/52 "2009-05-22T18:38:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Fairies are though to be free spirits, iron is a symbol of oppression and imprisonment, the worst fear of a fairy. I’d have thought the worst fear of a fairy would be being tricked into making a deal with Satan in the womb and becoming one of the Unseelie Court… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/53 "2009-05-22T20:19:35Z")
Quoth **dropzone** : > [@](#): > > Oh, you can point them out as being described as being “the people of the mounds.” Yes, absolutely, they could be them. However, in most cases, a culture that uses a technology that CAN become supplanted by a new technology adopts the new one as soon as they get together the trade goods to buy it, copies the new as best as they can with the old, or just steal it. Perhaps the invaders conquered the natives so quickly that the natives didn’t have a chance to adopt the invaders’ technology? Or at least, not to a great enough degree to make a difference in the fight? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/54 "2009-05-23T02:07:07Z")
So? Then the invaders and surviving natives settled down and started farming and intermarrying and trading and all the stuff people do. Sure, Grandpa probably explained that the only way the Celts could beat him and his homies was because they used some magical substance, but those stories apparently died away because they are not known today and the whole Cold Iron thing was made up 150 years ago. European Cold Iron exists today only as a plot device in crappy fantasy books and games. It is not a part of European folklore. OTOH, if you want to look at cultures in which iron has been imbued with magical properties, go to Africa. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/55 "2009-05-23T03:21:07Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > . . .but those stories apparently died away because they are not known today and the whole Cold Iron thing was made up 150 years ago. Well, just to nitpick (because that’s what I do), the term “cold iron” is more than 150 years old. The term’s in the 1811 “Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue” (which was a dictionary of British slang). It might be in the original version, but I don’t have access to it right now. From the dictionary, which > [@](#): > > COLD IRON. A sword, or any other weapon for cutting or stabbing. I gave him two inches of cold iron into his beef. The idea that iron can ward off evil also seems to predate the Victorians. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/56 "2009-05-23T03:33:11Z")
Er, your example is one equivalent to “cold steel.” It has nothing to do with folklore. ETA: It is just a description. Adjectives make for better descriptions. I welcome examples of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/57 "2009-05-23T03:58:25Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > I welcome examples of the latter. I’m trying to find them. Walter Scott’s “Letters on Demonology and Witchcraft”, which is pre-Victorian (he wrote them in 1830), mentions the iron=protection from evil link. But I’m trying to find earlier. Here’s Sir Walter, who’s talking about the writings of the 17th century minister, Rev. Robert Kirke (Kirke was the first person to translate the Psalms into Scottish Gaelic): > [@](#): > > Mr. Kirke accuses [elves] of stealing away the milk from the cows, and of carrying away, what is more material, the women in pregnancy, and the new-born children from their nurses. The remedy is easy in both cases. The milk can not be stolen if the mouth of the calf, before he is permitted to suck, be rubbed with a certain balsam, very easily come by, and the woman in travail is safe if a peace of cold iron is put into the bed. Here’s Kirke’s text, which he wrote in 1692, titled "The Secret Commonwealth of the Elves, Fauns and Fairies: > [@](#): > > The Tramontains to this Day put Bread, the Bible, or a piece of Iron, in Womens Beds when travelling, to save them from being thus stollen; and they commonly report, that all uncouth, unknown Wights are terrifyed by nothing earthly so much as by cold Iron. They delyver the Reason to be that Hell lying betwixt the chill Tempests, and the Fire Brands of scalding Metals, and Iron of the North, (hence the Loadstone causes a tendency to that Point,) by ane Antipathy thereto, these odious far-scenting Creatures shrug and fright at all that comes thence relating to so abhorred a Place, whence their Torment is eather begun, or feared to come hereafter. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112/58 "2009-05-23T04:06:15Z")
Okay, that’s cool and I retract a bit. Not enough to make the connection with iron vs bronze, or flint, but it’s a slight retraction. OTOH, you are allying with **Kanicbird**. Do you really want to do that? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fairies-fear-of-iron-memory-of-iron-v-bronze/497112.md?page=2)