# Faith is not an admirable thing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 12, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241 "2012-01-12T01:12:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/1 "2012-01-12T01:12:20Z")
“I wish I had his faith!” How often have you heard something equivalent to that? Much of Western Civ is based on the idea that faith – in something you can’t really know or prove to be true, but you believe it anyway because you really, really want to – is an admirable thing. It might be a thing to be admired **even** by persons who are absolutely convinced that the specific content of this brave martyr’s faith is false or even pernicious. “Even they gotta believe!” There even seems to be a widespread, unstated assumption that an unbeliever is a kind of spiritual coward for failing to take a “leap of faith.” This is all foolishness first to last. Faith has no proper place in any list of human virtues. It should never be so associated with hope or love. Faith, in and of itself, is **not** an admirable thing. All faith – **all** faith – is a form of wishful thinking. Wishful thinking is not always wrong, but it is always suspect, and you don’t need to be a philosopher to see why. But, wishful thinking is **never** admirable. Enviable, perhaps, sometimes – “How **happy** her faith makes her!” – but **never** admirable. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/2 "2012-01-12T01:21:59Z")
It is if you are a con artist. Helps you to fleece the suckers. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/3 "2012-01-12T01:23:45Z")
I agree (surprise!) Faith is irrational and often destructive. There’s nothing admirable about it. And before the spin doctors for religion come in and start twisting definitions and saying things like “you have faith in science”; _trust_ based on facts is not faith. It’s not faith to trust something or someone that has a history of producing useful, accurate information to continue to do so. You don’t even need to be educated in science; just look around and you can see yourself surrounded by technological evidence that science is based on reality. No need for faith there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/4 "2012-01-12T01:27:41Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > It is if you are a con artist. Helps you to fleece the suckers. That makes it **useful,** not admirable. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/5 "2012-01-12T01:45:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Much of Western Civ is based on the idea that faith – in something you can’t really know or prove to be true, but you believe it anyway because you really, really want to – is an admirable thing. I think there are two separate meanings of the word faith. One is admirable, the other is not. It’s easy to conflate the two so that the goodness of one is reflected in the other. “I have faith that I’ll be able to complete my calculus class even though I’m finding it tough right now.” This is the good kind. The kind that leads to iPhones and moon landings and people achieving things they didn’t think possible. “I have faith that I’ll be with my dead hamster in heaven.” This is the bad kind. It’s comforting but ultimately harmful. Maybe we need separate words for the two kinds of faith but, until we do, there are enough admirable kinds of faith that you can’t just dismiss the whole category of thinking as destructive. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/6 "2012-01-12T01:53:50Z")
“Faith is believing something you know ain’t so” Mark Twain (spoken as Huck Finn) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/7 "2012-01-12T02:06:46Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > I think there are two separate meanings of the word faith. One is admirable, the other is not. It’s easy to conflate the two so that the goodness of one is reflected in the other. > > “I have faith that I’ll be able to complete my calculus class even though I’m finding it tough right now.” This is the good kind. The kind that leads to iPhones and moon landings and people achieving things they didn’t think possible. I would call that hope, not faith. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/8 "2012-01-12T02:07:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I would call that hope, not faith. Or just a plan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/9 "2012-01-12T02:09:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Or just a plan. Or, perhaps, judgment. I’ve seen “faith” distinguished from it by definition as “belief in something on grounds even the believer knows insufficient.” My “faith,” or expectation, that the sun will rise tomorrow is based on experience and general knowledge; as David Hume pointed out, that still does not make it a certainty – but I have no compelling reason, practical or intellectual, to allow for the possibility it will not. The faith of a religious believer (or a believer in any dogmatic value-system or cause, e.g., Marxism) is a fundamentally different thing; moral and emotional considerations are mixed up with the factual and the practical. Many Christians would be utterly frightened by the prospect of living in a world without Christ; their faith in a Christian universe and their own place in it is what gives their lives meaning. But not even meaning, in that sense of the word, is always admirable. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/10 "2012-01-12T02:11:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > "Much of Western Civ is based on the idea that faith – in something you can’t really know or prove to be true, but you believe it anyway because you really, really want to – is an admirable thing. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/11 "2012-01-12T02:11:25Z")
It depends on what you mean by faith. I have faith that my family and friends will be there or me if needed. I don’t have faith in the superstitions of a primitive people who died out thousands of years ago. That type of faith is not only nothing to be admired, but something to be scorned because it is a character flaw. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/12 "2012-01-12T02:25:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I would call that hope, not faith. It’s more than hope. It’s a kind of confidence in the face of uncertainty. I can hope I’ll win the lottery, but I be silly to have faith that I’ll win the lottery. [OED says](http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/faith): > [@](#): > > [ol] > [li]complete trust or confidence in someone or something[/li][li]strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof[/li][/ol] You can’t just wish away the definitions you don’t like. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/13 "2012-01-12T02:32:44Z")
For many it comes because the person has no choice left in life but to have faith, and at that point it works. After this initial desperation a person starts seeing the bigger picture, the faith was never blind, but they just couldn’t see it. But they do notice the patterns now, and it works time and time again, life becomes understandable and the person’s purpose in this world is revealed. It is not so much a direct answer but a guided journey. Once one realized they are being guided it is a amazing life going places they never dreamed. Faith allows us to find out who we really are, dispelling fear that has held us back. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/14 "2012-01-12T02:33:02Z")
> [@Cumberdale](#): > > It depends on what you mean by faith. I have faith that my family and friends will be there or me if needed. That is not faith, that is judgment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/15 "2012-01-12T02:34:18Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > It’s more than hope. It’s a kind of confidence in the face of uncertainty. I can hope I’ll win the lottery, but I be silly to have faith that I’ll win the lottery. > > [OED says](http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/faith): > > You can’t just wish away the definitions you don’t like. Of course I can, because I’m only concerned here with the definition our culture egregiously **admires.** ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/16 "2012-01-12T06:36:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That is not faith, that is judgment. You don’t get to redefine the term every time we run into something admirable. **Cumberdale** ’s faith in family and friends is trust which is by definition [faith](http://thesaurus.com/browse/faith). **Kevlaw** similarly described faith, again, by definition. I consider faith to be one of the most important of human traits because without it there could not be cooperation. Without the emotional push to enter into a cooperative agreement, the push that we define as faith, there would need to be endless clauses and verification. People could not function under these circumstances. This is just as true when we regard faith in deities. This meaning of faith is usually invoked when one is trying to overcome nonhuman obstacle in their environment. If people could not have faith that somebody is looking out for them, they would more easily succumb to stress and anxiety induced by our ever changing circumstances. Faith continually enriches the lives of those who have it, and there is no reason to believe that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/17 "2012-01-12T07:52:05Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > You don’t get to redefine the term every time we run into something admirable. **Cumberdale** ’s faith in family and friends is trust which is by definition [faith](http://thesaurus.com/browse/faith). No, trust is very near the opposite unless the trust in question is insane. “Trust in family” would only be similar to religious faith if the family in question regularly starved and beat you as a child before abandoning you on a doorstep, then you trust them anyway. That is the kind of faith that religious people say they admire; faith based on _at best_ no evidence, and generally outright against the evidence. Once you bring up anything you call “faith” that has the slightest support for it, the slightest evidence, then you are talking about something that isn’t anything at all like religious faith, and that’s the subject of this thread. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I consider faith to be one of the most important of human traits because without it there could not be cooperation. Without the emotional push to enter into a cooperative agreement, the push that we define as faith, there would need to be endless clauses and verification. People could not function under these circumstances. > > This is just as true when we regard faith in deities. This meaning of faith is usually invoked when one is trying to overcome nonhuman obstacle in their environment. If people could not have faith that somebody is looking out for them, they would more easily succumb to stress and anxiety induced by our ever changing circumstances. Nonsense. Religious faith would only be like “entering into a cooperative agreement” if such an agreement involved handing all your money over to a known thief with “I WANT TO ROB YOU” tattooed on his forehead. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > Faith continually enriches the lives of those who have it, and there is no reason to believe that faith and reason are mutually exclusive. Faith is madness, and innately the enemy of reason. It is the _denial_ of reason, the denial that reason even has value. And it doesn’t make people better or enrich their lives; it blinds them to reality, makes them a danger to themselves and others. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/18 "2012-01-12T08:00:58Z")
My grandmother was a woman of faith, and very “advanced” in her thinking about race, for a lifelong Texan. But she didn’t really _think_ it, it was not an opinion. Jesus is Lord, loves all His children, therefore they are equal in His eyes. The issue was settled. King was a man of faith, who woke up every day wondering if this was the day his assassin would arrive. Perhaps he could have done so as a result of purely rational analysis. He says not. I’ll take him at his word. And reason is good? Lenin was a rational man, a fundamentalist radical of rationality, atheist, materialist, with nothing but the utterest contempt for “metaphysics”. Lest we forget, the “true” Marxist believed that Marxism was entirely scientific and rational. Good and evil didn’t enter into it, it was simply a matter of the inevitability of history. A wholly rational foundation for acts of brutal indifference. It would appear, then, that rationality doesn’t apply to questions of good and evil, good men use rational methods to their ends, so do bad men. The trains of horror run on schedule, for maximum efficiency, armies are mobilized with logistical precision for slaughter. And Ghandhi carefully reasons his policy of non-violent struggle, of fighting oppression by confronting the conscience of the oppressor. Seems to me, then, that neither faith nor reason has any essential quality. but derive their nature entirely from some other source. I have my own odd notions of the nature of that source, but see no good reason to bore you with them. Any further. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/19 "2012-01-12T08:10:27Z")
Faith in your family, that they would help and support you in tough times, is something that you build up by observing that they act like that. Faith in a God is choosing to believe in that God without evidence. Not laudable. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241/20 "2012-01-12T08:15:34Z")
I’m lazy, so I’ll just quote Pratchett: > [@](#): > > Death: Humans need fantasy to _be_ human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape. > Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers? > Death: Yes. As practice, you have to start out learning to believe the little lies. > Susan: So we can believe the big ones? > Death: Yes. Justice, mercy, duty. That sort of thing. > Susan: They’re not the same at all. > Death: You think so? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder, and sieve it through the finest sieve, and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet, you try to act as if there is some ideal order in the world. As if there is some, some rightness in the universe, by which it may be judged. > Susan: But people have got to believe that, or what’s the point? > Death: You need to believe in things that aren’t true. How else can they become? I believe in plenty of things I know aren’t 100% true. It’s a useful psychological trick. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-is-not-an-admirable-thing/609241.md?page=2)