# Faith isn't easy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715 "2007-11-08T21:45:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/41 "2007-11-11T00:08:28Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] And here I thought personal experience was anecdotal and unreliable. But God who set the sun to rise in the morning was reliable. What I object to most is atheists trying to make the word “faith” a dirty word. It is a perfectly good word describing a perfectly logical part of human life. I don’t know why faith should be objectionable under any circumstances. I don’t believe it rational to add or change the definitions of words in order to favor some particular believe system. [/QUOTE] Next time, I will pay more attention to Mr/Ms **Czarcasm**. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/42 "2007-11-11T03:28:12Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Even when “faith” can be replaced by “fact” ? There’s a reason we don’t use wax cylinders for audio recordings any more; something more useful came along. [/QUOTE] If it could be replaced by “fact”, then it wouldn’t be faith, right? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/43 "2007-11-11T03:45:07Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] If it could be replaced by “fact”, then it wouldn’t be faith, right? [/QUOTE] Exactly. Which is one reason why religion, faith, whatever you want to call it is basically empty and worthless. Because if it **wasn’t** worthless, it would be something else. People don’t have faith in penicillin or dogs or bullets or friendship or gravity; they don’t need to. Faith is for baseless or incorrect beliefs that people don’t want to give up; not for anything real. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/44 "2007-11-11T06:10:18Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] If it could be replaced by “fact”, then it wouldn’t be faith, right? [/QUOTE] Well, whatever can’t be replaced by fact has no significance. I’ve seen you claim as a fact that out-of-body experiences are real (in the sense that a person’s perceptions really are leaving their body, as opposed to just being a convincing hallucination) and this should be fairly easy to verify (i.e. moved from “faith” to “fact”), but since it hasn’t, there’s no reason for me to abandon my (admittedly limited) understanding of how the human brain works and dismiss neuroscience as a hoax. Similarly, I’m not going to dump the concept of evolution in favour of something which has _no_ evidence on its side. The satisfaction of having faith is simply not enough. Your use of “faith” in your earlier post just dilutes the concept to meaninglessness, at which point objecting to it, or supporting it, or discussing it, is all equally pointless. Anyway, like I said early on in this thread, I consider faith to be a coping mechanism; a means of dealing with stresses over which the individual has little or no control. We all have such mechanisms. I try to be polite (compared to Der Trihs and Dio the Cyn I’m downright saintly, while being just as athy or athier than either of them), but when I see boastfulness or arrogance at work (i.e. “my coping mechanism is a heavy burden” / “my coping mechanism will work for everybody” / “my coping mechanism should be mandatory”), I jump in. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/45 "2007-11-11T15:08:36Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Well, whatever can’t be replaced by fact has no significance. I’ve seen you claim as a fact that out-of-body experiences are real (in the sense that a person’s perceptions really are leaving their body, as opposed to just being a convincing hallucination) and this should be fairly easy to verify (i.e. moved from “faith” to “fact”), but since it hasn’t, there’s no reason for me to abandon my (admittedly limited) understanding of how the human brain works and dismiss neuroscience as a hoax. Similarly, I’m not going to dump the concept of evolution in favour of something which has _no_ evidence on its side. The satisfaction of having faith is simply not enough. Your use of “faith” in your earlier post just dilutes the concept to meaninglessness, at which point objecting to it, or supporting it, or discussing it, is all equally pointless. Anyway, like I said early on in this thread, I consider faith to be a coping mechanism; a means of dealing with stresses over which the individual has little or no control. We all have such mechanisms. I try to be polite (compared to Der Trihs and Dio the Cyn I’m downright saintly, while being just as athy or athier than either of them), but when I see boastfulness or arrogance at work (i.e. “my coping mechanism is a heavy burden” / “my coping mechanism will work for everybody” / “my coping mechanism should be mandatory”), I jump in. [/QUOTE] Out of body experiences are real and have been verified by research, where have you been? I can provide you with the research, several researches showing that fact. > [@](#): > > There are a number of well documented cases of people having near death experiences / out of body experiences, even during a flat EEG where brain and heart activity had ceased, returning with factual information which they had no prior knowledge of, and numerous cases in which the experiencers returned to life with information unavailable to them at the time of death. > > These include being able to accurately tell the doctors what they were doing while they were clinically dead, what clothes they wore, what procedures and instruments they used, and any conversations being said, including accurate blow by blow accounts of their own resuscitation from a bird’s eye point of view, the whole of which can later be checked and verified to be true. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/46 "2007-11-11T15:11:48Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Exactly. Which is one reason why religion, faith, whatever you want to call it is basically empty and worthless. Because if it **wasn’t** worthless, it would be something else. People don’t have faith in penicillin or dogs or bullets or friendship or gravity; they don’t need to. Faith is for baseless or incorrect beliefs that people don’t want to give up; not for anything real. [/QUOTE] Religion is not equal to faith, it is not possible to do away with faith in your life or any others. Do you have faith your water supply is clean or do you test it every time before drinking, and a million other things. Your argument is illogical and irrational. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/47 "2007-11-11T15:16:09Z")
No one can be made to believe anything, belief is a choice, some choose one belief over another because it appeals to them, not because it has been proven. All belief systems have contradictions in them. The time will come with enlightenment when belief systems are no longer needed. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/48 "2007-11-11T21:16:35Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Religion is not equal to faith, it is not possible to do away with faith in your life or any others. [/quote] All religion is based on faith. That is the major reason it is so destructive. [QUOTE=lekatt] Do you have faith your water supply is clean or do you test it every time before drinking, and a million other things. [/QUOTE] You seem to confuse “faith” and “trust, due to evidence”. I trust my water supply because it’s been safe in the past, and because I live in a country where the water is usually safe. There are many places in the world where that **isn’t** true, and I certainly would test or boil any water I drink there, or bring my own if I can. I wouldn’t trust it, that’s for sure. As the religious & superstitious and other faithful often do, you are trying to create a false equivalance between trust and faith, so that you can pretend that your beliefs are just as rational, just as valid as non-religious beliefs. They are not. Religion and other faith based beliefs, including yours, are simply insanity with better propaganda. They are at the very bottom of the intellectual spectrum of plausibility; the nadir of human thought. They are the stupidest type of belief that exists; probably the stupidest that can exist. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/49 "2007-11-11T22:09:58Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Out of body experiences are real and have been verified by research, where have you been? I can provide you with the research, several researches showing that fact. [/QUOTE] And this amazingly useful method of surveillance isn’t being applied… why? Seems to me if one could induce a near-death state in someone and have their perceptions go-a-wandering and return with accurate information, the military would be doing this in lieu of spy satellites. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/50 "2007-11-12T00:06:32Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] And this amazingly useful method of surveillance isn’t being applied… why? Seems to me if one could induce a near-death state in someone and have their perceptions go-a-wandering and return with accurate information, the military would be doing this in lieu of spy satellites. [/QUOTE] The military have investigated this a lot. In Russia even more research has been done. The problem is no one can leave their body at will. Certain conditions must be present, not the least of which is positive emotional desire. The world of the military is not a positive one. The motives are dishonest, and this interferes with the process. The spirit world is a world of love. Hard to explain unless you have experienced it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/51 "2007-11-12T00:09:39Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] All religion is based on faith. That is the major reason it is so destructive. You seem to confuse “faith” and “trust, due to evidence”. I trust my water supply because it’s been safe in the past, and because I live in a country where the water is usually safe. There are many places in the world where that **isn’t** true, and I certainly would test or boil any water I drink there, or bring my own if I can. I wouldn’t trust it, that’s for sure. As the religious & superstitious and other faithful often do, you are trying to create a false equivalance between trust and faith, so that you can pretend that your beliefs are just as rational, just as valid as non-religious beliefs. They are not. Religion and other faith based beliefs, including yours, are simply insanity with better propaganda. They are at the very bottom of the intellectual spectrum of plausibility; the nadir of human thought. They are the stupidest type of belief that exists; probably the stupidest that can exist. [/QUOTE] I just don’t understand your posts. They give new meanings to words and say that anything religious is bad. Obviously irrational and illogical. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/52 "2007-11-12T18:20:13Z")
I’ll reiterate the point I made in another post - “faith” if not precisely defined in a given context can have different meanings and lead to confusion. There’s _strong passive_ faith as in trust, usually applied to other people and earned through continued good action. There’s _neutral passive_ faith as in a working model of reality or a situation, which is merely a mental collection of the past behaviors of a system coupled with a theory about how they interact and the choice to act as though that theory is correct until such time as new information contradicts the theory. Then there’s a _weak active_ faith - which is the one often used in religious doctrine arguments but which I think is better served by the word “loyalty” - defending information despite apparently contradictory experience because of a desire to be loyal to or belong to the source of the information. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/53 "2007-11-12T18:35:24Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] The military have investigated this a lot. In Russia even more research has been done. The problem is no one can leave their body at will. Certain conditions must be present, not the least of which is positive emotional desire. The world of the military is not a positive one. The motives are dishonest, and this interferes with the process. The spirit world is a world of love. Hard to explain unless you have experienced it. [/QUOTE] No-one? Ever? Even with months of practice and mediation? Besides, has anyone checked the number of times a person returns from an out-of-body experience with accurate observations vs. those who return from them with _in_accurate observations? Anyway, saying that it _can’t_ be explained is easy. Explaining why it can’t be explained… that’s hard. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/54 "2007-11-12T18:53:17Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] God’s plan is to rescue humanity from that fate. [/QUOTE] Maybe he should, y’know, get on that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2007, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715/55 "2007-11-12T19:01:54Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Maybe he should, y’know, get on that. [/QUOTE] I’m sure it’s on His list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-isnt-easy/425715.md?page=2)