Faith -- Let's Discuss It

One does not need certainty to move forward, nor does one need faith to move forward, one only needs to move forward.

If the only way you (or anyone else, this is not personal) can move forward is to use faith, then better to use it than not. Why throw away a crutch if you need (or think you need) it to walk?

Why move forward when you don;'t know what’s coming, or don’t have an expectation of what is coming? So you can experience reality uncolored by expectation, and thereby sample Truth directly.

All those things you list to justify your need for faith can be done without faith. I have no certainty, not even of the next minute, yet I move on, without certainty, without faith, but with calm anticipation of the adventure to come.

It is in the dialectic that Truth is elicited.

Actually, I deliberately typed nickle, which is an alternate spelling of nickel relatively widely accepted, and preferred in some North American dialects, though considered by most who know of it as an archaic usage.

I did not know a nickle was also a type of bird. (Bravo! Don’t put yourself down; that was quite brave and innovative. I’ve noticed, in lurking over the past few years, that this message board - or rather its more vocal members - truly stifles creativity in favor of adherance to political correctness. Don’t fall victim to their arrogance.) Is a cockatoo worth more? Or is a nickle rare enough to make the raise of a cockatoo… marginal?

And more importantly: are you ready to shed your need for faith?

Evan

I expect people to keep their agreements with me, and I expect myself to keep my agreements; this is the essence of keeping faith. If I did not expect others to keep their agreements, why make them in the first place? Why cultivate relationship, if there is no justification for presuming that the investment is worthwhile, that past actions are a reasonable guide to future ones, that my children will have fathers? If expectation, if continuity, is so bad, what failing is there in betrayal?

I’m not interested in pursuing “Truth”; I consider truth to be an emergent process of human minds creating meaning, and it will happen whether I chase after it to the detriment of other things or not. The idea of the ultimate truth, the one that exists independent of the human mind, is an illusion in which I cannot imagine having faith.

Thanks to everyone for being patient with me the past few days. I owe responses to a couple of people, expecially Poly and Voyager. I’ll answer Poly first and then Voyager (for no particualr reason). I appreciate what both of you have written, especially you, Poly for responding to my request in such detail and personal history.

No thanks, the Bishop of Smyrna is actually better suited to answer my question! :wink:

I wasn’t intending to ask about your theodicy. Rather, I’m the classic pessimist in your adage: I’m convinced that this is the sort of world necessary for beings such as ourselves to exist. I don’t see much evidence (or have much of a sense) that this involves everything turning out well for me or for anyone else in this life.

Given this, I’m not sure what it means to trust God. I believe that though Jesus Christ and his church, God has shown us how we humans ought to live in this world. I believe this based both on utilitarian arguments (that doing so produces the most happiness relative to pain) and aesthetic ones (the sort of world in which we live according to the teachings of Christ is the sort of world I’d prefer to live in, even if one in which we were all anaesthatized by drugs had less suffering and more “happiness”). I also believe that living in this way allows us to deal with pain and to experience joy better. No amount of faith will prevent me bad things from happening to me: I may be lashed, beaten, stoned, shipwrecked, in danger, in hardship, hungry and thirsty, cold and naked. I will endure all this with greater equanimity if I trust God and have faith that this is all according to God’s will. (Likewise, I will enjoy health, wealth, the love and fellowship of familiy and friends, etc. more deeply and more fully if I view them as gfts from God rather than accidents of fortune.)

Unfortunately, I’m not sure how to do this. I’m not sure what it means to trust God knowing all this.

One possibility is that what we suffer in this life will be made up for in the life to come. I find this more plausible and more Christian than the idea that all things turn out well in this life for those who love God. Nevertheless, I’m not convinced that God’s goodness entails our happiness, nor that continued personal existance is compatible with eternal bliss, nor that any such thing is true. (I’m actually quite convinced that personal existance ends with death.)

You had expressed some ambiguity about the afterlife, and so I was curious whether that meant that you trust that everything will turn out well in this life, and on what you base your faith that everything will turn out well in any life, since I seen no basis (subjective, objective, or biblical [given my understanding of Scriptural authority]) for such.

I have more to say, especially about your experiences of something “other” acting in your life, but I’m not sure it would be on topic to do so.

This is a difficult discussion for me to have right now, so I think I’ll wait and see what comes next. I don’t promise I’ll be able to respond, but I do enjoy reading your insights, Poly.

I’m sorry Voyager, but I think I’ll try to respond to you another time. I hope that’s OK. :slight_smile:

But you know you have been deceived, dumped, lied to, etc., and repeatedly. Also you have had your expectation fulfilled. So, you get disappointed a proportion of the time.
I know people will sometimes keep their agreements and sometimes not, so I’m never dissapointed. I’m in touch with reality.
Why make agreements in the first place? It is a starting place for cooperation.

Past actions are a reasonable guide, but they are no guarantee. You always take your chances. Why not face that reality?

[/QUOTE]
I’m not interested in pursuing “Truth”; I consider truth to be an emergent process of human minds creating meaning, and it will happen whether I chase after it to the detriment of other things or not. The idea of the ultimate truth, the one that exists independent of the human mind, is an illusion in which I cannot imagine having faith.
[/QUOTE]

Ultimate Truth is what IS. The illusion is trying to make it something it is not. Of course, you can choose to do or not do whatever you want. You can even impose unreasonable expectations on the Universe, but you will reap what you sow.

Ultimate Truth is what IS. The illusion is trying to make it something it is not. Of course, you can choose to do or not do whatever you want. You can even impose unreasonable expectations on the Universe, but you will reap what you sow.
[/QUOTE]

I do.

I continue to make agreements anyway, even knowing that some people are not worthy of such faith. They will prove themselves accordingly or they won’t; I will update my knowledge as appropriate and use that as a foundation for decisions and faith. Perhaps the plans founded on such things will cease to be useful to me in the future; that is no excuse for not doing the work now.

I don’t consider disappointment to be the end of the world or even a terrible setback; it is simply a part of reality. It will happen when it happens, and I will deal with it when it happens; I see no point in going to tremendous lengths to avoid it, especially since the only way to avoid ever having a connection broken is never to have one. Living in fear of having to face the unexpected strikes me as a good way to go mad; it is, after all, a contingent universe.

I couldn’t agree more.

I’m not sure if I have a need for faith or not. Hell, I’m not even sure if I have faith. Sometimes I really wonder about these things, and sometimes I just don’t care at all. :wink:

Apologies. I should not have assumed you lean on faith to help you deal with life. I got caught up in the opposition of points of discussion.

Reading this I don’t see that you and I are that far apart.

I often wonder why we debate the limitations of faith but don’t bother debating the limitations of reason and/or science-- and mind you, this comes from a (undergrad) mathematician and a working scientist.

Science works incredibly well because of the simple fact that everything is directly observable by our senses. Sure, we have lots of lovely equipment such as scanning/tunneling electron microscopes, cyclotrons, telescopes and the like, but they are basically sense-enhancers. That’s always left me with this question-- is there anything out there that cannot be directly, or even immediately indirectly sensed? A buddy of mine likened it to the electromagnetic spectrum-- do only “colors” exist, or is there a far, far larger category we just can’t comprehend, no matter how sophisticated our sensory-enhancing equipment becomes? And hey, even pure reason has its limitations according to Goedel.

I’d posit that it is an act of faith to say that there ARE phenomena that exist outside of our cognizance. In our finite brain, it is impossible to grasp the infinite (one of the reasons I’m attracted to Sikhism is that it says exactly that about what Waheguru [“God”] is).

The flip side is a lot more personal, however. There are plenty of humans out there who feel the need for unconditional love, me among them, and in the darkest hours rely on a source of unconditional love that understands far, far more than we (well, I) can comprehend as (a) human(s) This is the subjective side of what I consider my own faith in Waheguru.

I certainly think that EvanS is right, you can “transcend” that subjective need for a comfort figure, a lot of people have. But OTOH a lot of people really do experience that love and comfort in concrete ways. Since it is a completely and utterly subjective experience however, saying that you can “transcend” it is no better than saying “MY experience of (the) God(esses) is better than yours, therefore you need to change how you experience-- or don’t experience-- God.” What works for EvanS isn’t going to work for me. It’s similar to EvanS meeting my life partner. Certainly he isn’t going to fall as deeply in love with her as I have (although 100% of people agree she’s great to talk to. :smiley: )

I think that’s the basis of why a lot of folks distinguish between religion and spirituality. Religion can be followed mindlessly, like EvanS’s example of 2nd graders at catechism, or it can become a path for spiritual growth (and there’s no better example than Polycarp). Spirituality itself probably doesn’t need a “god” figure, but it does need a way of understanding humanity, including your own, faults and all-- at least that’s how I’d define it, I’m sure there are better definitions.

Still, I’d say “faith” is not provable because faith not only outside of what’s provable only because science has its own limitations, too. I yield to no one in my respect for science and logic, but it only carries you so far when you face a huge emotional crisis. That’s when feeling that there is an infinite source of love, redemption and comfort comes in mighty handy.

If I came across as communicating that if you need faith then you are somehow inferior, then I have mis-communicated. If faith makes your life better, then far be it from me to take it away!

I think, however, that we are societally conditioned to believe we need faith, and that society communicates to us that we are inferior if we have no faith. (“Have you no faith man?” someone to Indiana Jones in some film…)

If a person loses a limb, and has an artificial limb to compensate, I would not call them inferior. If a person needs a crutch to walk, the same thing. If a person needs faith to get through an emotional/spiritual/whatever incident, again, there is no implied inferiority.

Yet if we use faith only thinking we need it because we have been told so, it would be nice to know the alternative – though for some it could be scary, like learning how to swim in water over your head, and it may take practice.

You don’t need to change, but you can, if you choose.

I love, and I love unconditionally. I have no faith that love will be returned (that’s part of the definition of unconditional love BTW), though I like it when it is. When it isn’t, I seek to understand.

I pay my taxes with no faith in my government whatsoever, but historically I can get a good idea of what I might expect if I follow certain rules.

As to a supreme being - there may or may not be one. I get no comfort from believing, or having faith that there is one and pretending that I know how this being is going to react to my faith or lack thereof.

Life after death? I’ll find out soon enough.

Faith? Why? Why do I need it? Why should I need it?

All experience is subjective. Objectivity is like Lilairen’s “Truth,” ‘an emergent process of human minds… and it will happen whether I chase after it to the detriment of other things or not.’ We define objectivity by consensus, concentric validation (with limitations… concentric validation does not apply to currently unpopular phenomenon like ghosts or PSI phenomenon or UFOs), what we agree is objective is, by definition, though it is just commonalized subjectivity.

Truth is what IS. If you don’t seek Truth, then what do you seek? Comfort? Nothing? Deception? Half-truth? Faith? Many seek temporary, false comforts, and some must, in order to survive to tomorrow. Far be it from me to define what is Truth in specific, beyond describing it as that which IS, for I am just like all the rest of you, a subjective experiental observer and a less-than-perfect communicator, to boot.

So, why should I bother posting to his thread? I have no axe to grind, no masses to lead to ‘salvation,’ no ultimate truth to impress. It’s just a point of view: Faith is unnecessary – at least most of the time, for most of the people.

If I’m climbing Everest and I have faith that I will make it, will that help me make it? Will it make me arrogant enough that I might neglect some important equipment? Will it give me extra strength to make that last six feet? Will it elicit assistance from some divine entity?

If I have not faith, but determination, instead, will I check my equipment more carefully? Will I ensure that my strength is up to the task beforehand? Will I reach inside myself for reserve assistance rather than appealing to an outside aid I cannot see or confirm?

I will do whatever I feel I must to accomplish whatever I subjectively feel is of import for me to accomplish in this world. If that includes re-adopting faith after the revelations, transformations and investigations which have indicated to me that faith is unnecessary (in most instances), then I might do that, too.

If I break a leg again, I’ll use crutches again, but not forever.

Evan Seven

Well, knowing that you have someone to turn to out there, no matter how abstract God is, does help, yes. But the Waheguru is more than a crutch to me, and I’m sure more than that to everyone else of faith. I don’t see faith as a strict necessity, but more along the lines of a way for us all to connect with each other in a tangible way.

What does it do concretely? It creates communities, for starters. You can say that’s not “faith”, that’s religion, but the religious communities that thrive have at their base people whose faith drives them to create that community. It creates, at least for me, a real connection between me and all life. If my Waheguru is infinite, then I am part of the Waheguru, as is everything-- all of humanity, all living creatures, this planet, etc. While I can also justify these questions on the basis of humanitarianism, ecological responsiblity, etc. my faith does give me a very real emotional connection.

At times it is a crutch, sure. But faith is also a way of loving, a way of seeing the universe in a very emotional and subjective way, a form of giving thanks to the universe (whether it hears or not is up for debate, but faith says it does since Waheguru IS the universe and infinitely more). Faith also brings about a sense of wonderment, and the confidence that there is a reason that it all exists-- otherwise, why should anything exist? That question is unanswerable under science or even logic. But I have faith that the universe exists for a reason.

Science not only studies what can be directly observed, but that which has impact on the world, and can thus be indirectly observed. We can’t observe the Big Bang, but we can observe the background radiation left over from it. We wouldn’t be able to directly observe god, of course, (well, not in some religions) but we should be able to detect his handiwork if there was any.

None of which has anything to do with what comforts us, which is purely subjective. If belief in a god comforts someone, it doesn’t really matter if that god exists or not. The only time that does matter is when someone is attempting to get someone else to do something or not do something based on the commands or wishes of a god. Then, it is only fair to ask for substantive evidence.

I totally agree with everything folks say-- religion has NO place in public policy as far as I’m concerned. Anytime someone directly or indirectly says “well, we’re being UNgodly here in 'Murica” I so want to ask “Which God?!”

>Science not only studies what can be directly observed, but that which has impact on the world, and can thus be indirectly observed. We can’t observe the Big Bang, but we can observe the background radiation left over from it. We wouldn’t be able to directly observe god, of course, (well, not in some religions) but we should be able to detect his handiwork if there was any.

Two problems with that argument-- “indirect” observation leads to theory. GOOD theory of course, but theory is a constantly evolving process as we get more data in. And again, that data IS directly experienced in some way tied to our senses. Background radiation can be heard, and can be described in detail because there are specific mathematical relationship among its properties.

What’s to say that there isn’t anything out there that can’t be seen, heard, tasted, felt, smelled, or otherwise sensed directly or indirectly? What if its properties were so nonlinear that there was no way to deduct its existence from present knowledge? It’s completely possible. It could be something like neutrinos, but completely unencumbered by any kind of interaction to matter we interact with. Eventually perhaps we can detect it if it does exist; perhaps we never will. Questions like that intrigue me, but from a strictly scientific standpoint-- that is, from the standpoint that some kind of observation is necessary to deduct properties-- it is irrelevant.

The scientist in me says that if God does exist, then it is the latter case-- completely undetectable. The logician in me thinks that Waheguru is undetectible because Waheguru is infinite, and while the infinite can be metaphorically explained, true comprehension is impossible with finite minds. In this case the mind of God is unknowable, let alone a good reference point for public policy decisions, that is for sure. It can only be experienced at an emotional level, and only if you put faith in its existence in the first place given the lack of evidence. I choose to do so, not only because it is comforting (ie, the crutch explanation) but also because it is yet another layer of wonder on an amazing, scientifically explainable, incredibly beautiful universe.

I prefer that the things in my life, whether they be road construction, public health funding or foreign policy be rooted in the REAL world, however. A person’s faith can GUIDE them, but that old saying about “God helps those who help themselves” is true. Faith may guide, but it’s no substitute for education and intelligence, and in fact I question anyone who claims to have faith but brushes off the latter. That’s not faith; that’s dogmatism.

mojave66, I can certainly see your justification for relying on faith, and certainly neither you or anyone has to justify to me, or anyone else, the fact that they do so. Yet my point stands, that all of this can just as easily be accomplished without faith.

I always have had someone to turn to whenever I needed it. Sometimes I have had to go through half a dozen friends, acquaintences and strangers before I found them, but the law of averages says they will be there, in concrete form, as long as I persist. Since I have no faith, I persist, for there is no faith to lose. I simply pursue what I need. And along the way I have made amazing friends, met incredible people and had wonderful loves that I would otherwise have missed.

Faith may create communities, as you say, but just being human, open and giving creates communities just as easily, and without the divisiveness that often ensues with communities based on religious faith (or political faith or any other kind of faith in intangibles). Thankfully there *are * some religious communities that do not create divisiveness, but so many do that the divisiveness is ingrained. How many wars have had religious divisions as their motivation? The war in which the USA is currently embroiled is, at its roots, a religious motivated conflict.

Interestingly, I like Sikhism, for in spite of the faith aspect it seems very practical. Last time I met a Sikh was in Hartford, CT. He carried a sheath knife openly in public, and justified it as a means to protect women and children, and claimed it was a religious mandate. Very practical.

I don’t have search capabilities in SDMB, but I recall someone earlier saying there was a Russian saying, something like “Pray to God but row for shore.” I wonder how many people have faith as a contingency, like, “I’ll believe in God (or whatever) just in case.”

We can speculate endlessly, and we must if we want to progress and expand our knowledge, for most of our advances from the stone age are borne of speculation of what is possible, from the flint arrowhead to the atom bomb, from the use of herbs to nanobots. Some, too, must speculate about the spiritual realm, and investigate gods, ghosts, afterlife and other intangibles (though I’d guess a majority of dopers would argue that this is a waste of time). If, however, we begin with faith as the basis for our investigation we are already biased, which as we know can skew our perceptions. It makes it more difficult to arrive at Truth when you already think you know what Truth is.

We are a tenacious species. We are incredibly intelligent and just as incredibly stupid. Yet we learn from our mistakes just as often as we learn from our successes. That’s not faith, it’s history. If we survive our more serious mistakes we will continue to acquire more and more knowledge, and uncover more and more Truth. Whether we will ever have it all is irrelevent.

Evan Again