# Faith, religion, and the afterlife: A form of denial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713 "2014-01-02T16:57:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/701 "2014-02-10T13:39:38Z")
> [@YoungKusher](#): > > I would like to readdress this comment,bolding mine. My point is that for all intensive purposes, I think my definitions for atheism and agnosticism would line up pretty well with cosmodan’s, or we would agree for the most part if not for the whole part. Any small deviation or “sort-of” contradiction on their part amounts to very little on the whole. It’s clear that some people look at theist and atheist as being about belief and Agnostic as being about knowledge and what we can know, exclusive of belief. IMO, in fairly common usage , agnostic is also referred to as someone’s status concerning belief , meaning undecided or uncommitted to either belief or non belief. My guess is that’s why it’s described that way by some dictionaries. If some people use the terms agnostic atheist or agnostic theist , that’s fine , I understand them even though I find them unnessecary.There’s nothing especially “official” about them. IMO, the goal in communication should be to understand and clarify the meaning of the person you’re communicating with, so that a discussion may continue , rather than descend into an argument of termnoligy and trying to tell someone what they are after they’ve repeatedly said otherwise. The idea that someone has to be either a theist or atheist and can’t be just an agnostic strikes me as bizarre and a little ridiculous It’s like asking someone if they believe in god and when they respond “I haven’t decided” you insist they have so decided, you can’t not decide. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/702 "2014-02-10T22:58:38Z")
**EVERYONE!** Stop arguing about the way other posters are posting. Stick to arguing the points you each want to make and stop trying to tell other posters what they “really” meant or telling them that they have been arguing poorly. **[/Moderating]** ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2014, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/703 "2014-02-10T23:08:19Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > . . . The idea that someone has to be either a theist or atheist and can’t be just an agnostic strikes me as bizarre and a little ridiculous > > It’s like asking someone if they believe in god and when they respond “I haven’t decided” you insist they have so decided, you can’t not decide. I can see the argument. Someone who “hasn’t decided” is certainly not a “theist,” and, in some functional way, is “atheist.” He doesn’t go to church, doesn’t pray to Adelicnander, doesn’t recite from the Big Blue Book, etc. On the other hand, I accept the utility of the third category. “You must answer yes or no” is, in itself, sometimes fallacious, and often just rude. The third option creates a comfort zone. “Plausible deniability.” The atheists can accept the agnostics as fellow travellers, without forcing them to carry membership cards. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/704 "2014-02-11T03:22:35Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I can see the argument. Someone who “hasn’t decided” is certainly not a “theist,” and, in some functional way, is “atheist.” He doesn’t go to church, doesn’t pray to Adelicnander, doesn’t recite from the Big Blue Book, etc. > > On the other hand, I accept the utility of the third category. “You must answer yes or no” is, in itself, sometimes fallacious, and often just rude. The third option creates a comfort zone. “Plausible deniability.” > > The atheists can accept the agnostics as fellow travellers, without forcing them to carry membership cards. Well no. Going to church isn’t a requirement for theism. Lots of folks who never go will still say they believe in god. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/705 "2014-02-11T03:35:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Well no. Going to church isn’t a requirement for theism. Lots of folks who never go will still say they believe in god. Hm? Obverse of my argument. I never said that going to church was a requirement, only that someone who is not religious would not go to church. (And, before you say, “He might just be going for the music or the buffet” take it as implied "going to church to worship or participate in religious activities.) Seriously, you’re nitpicking a point that I never made. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/706 "2014-02-11T04:54:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Hm? Obverse of my argument. I never said that going to church was a requirement, only that someone who is not religious would not go to church. > > (And, before you say, “He might just be going for the music or the buffet” take it as implied "going to church to worship or participate in religious activities.) > > Seriously, you’re nitpicking a point that I never made. I hate to differ with you, but some people will go pretty far to get into a position of respect and/or power because they might see the church as an organization that would be run better if _they_ were in charge. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/707 "2014-02-11T13:27:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I hate to differ with you, but some people will go pretty far to get into a position of respect and/or power because they might see the church as an organization that would be run better if _they_ were in charge. Look how many preachers get into it because of the money. In “Up From Slavery” Booker T {the auther not the wrestler} said many ex slaves were going into religion to avoid manual labour. In this country many people attend as a career move. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/708 "2014-02-11T13:29:21Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Hm? Obverse of my argument. I never said that going to church was a requirement, only that someone who is not religious would not go to church. > > (And, before you say, “He might just be going for the music or the buffet” take it as implied "going to church to worship or participate in religious activities.) > > Seriously, you’re nitpicking a point that I never made. Then please explain again without the going to church reference how an agnostic is functionally an atheist because I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/709 "2014-02-11T13:32:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Hm? Obverse of my argument. I never said that going to church was a requirement, only that someone who is not religious would not go to church. > > (And, before you say, “He might just be going for the music or the buffet” take it as implied "going to church to worship or participate in religious activities.) > > Seriously, you’re nitpicking a point that I never made. After consideration , if you’re saying an agnostic might appear to be atheist because thay are not obviously religious, I still can’t agree. Lot’s of believers don’t attend so anyone who isn’t obviously religious might easily be any of the three. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/710 "2014-02-11T21:42:53Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Then please explain again without the going to church reference how an agnostic is functionally an atheist because I disagree. Agnostics don’t go to church. Atheists don’t go to church. Agnostics don’t worship [doyc.] Atheists don’t worship [doyc.] Agnostics don’t engage in rituals. Atheists don’t engage in rituals. Agnostics are functionally the same as atheists. They may hold a personal private reserve of uncertainty, but they don’t participate in religion either. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/711 "2014-02-11T21:44:29Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > After consideration , if you’re saying an agnostic might appear to be atheist because thay are not obviously religious, I still can’t agree. Lot’s of believers don’t attend so anyone who isn’t obviously religious might easily be any of the three. You keep using the obverse of what I said to argue against what I actually said. All cats are mammals. Saying, “but lots of mammals aren’t cats,” fails as a form of rebuttal. ETA: or is it the converse? I can never keep those two straight. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/712 "2014-02-12T02:12:13Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Agnostics don’t go to church. Atheists don’t go to church. > > Agnostics don’t worship [doyc.] Atheists don’t worship [doyc.] > > Agnostics don’t engage in rituals. Atheists don’t engage in rituals. > > Agnostics are functionally the same as atheists. They may hold a personal private reserve of uncertainty, but they don’t participate in religion either. Sure , but many Believers don’t go to church, Don’t worship don’t engae in rituals so they are also functionally the same as atheists? And if so, did you ever have a point? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/713 "2014-02-12T05:36:19Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Sure , but many > Believers don’t go to church, > > Don’t worship > > don’t engae in rituals > > so they are also functionally the same as atheists? And if so, did you ever have a point? Some few believers don’t behave in any way, whatever, to display their religion. So, yeah: they would be functionally pretty similar to atheists. Amusing when the door to door guys come by to try to proselytize them. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![rustyrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed8c4c/32.png) [@rustyrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rustyrunner)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/714 "2014-02-12T09:45:52Z")
When you get right down to it most of us are “opinionated agnostics”. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/715 "2014-02-12T12:05:02Z")
> [@rustyrunner](#): > > When you get right down to it most of us are “opinionated agnostics”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/716 "2014-02-12T12:06:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Some few believers don’t behave in any way, whatever, to display their religion. So, yeah: they would be functionally pretty similar to atheists. Amusing when the door to door guys come by to try to proselytize them. > > What’s your point? I don’t think it’s some few, I think it’s many, which seems to make your original post/point moot. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/717 "2014-02-12T20:30:37Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I don’t think it’s some few, I think it’s many, which seems to make your original post/point moot. Well, you could back that up, and I think you’d fail. But people of faith, who don’t behave according to that faith in any way are, functionally, indistinguishable from agnostics or atheists. Mind you, the moment they say to a friend, “Oh, yes, I do believe, I just don’t go to church,” they have acted in accordance with faith, and fall out of your category of absolutely nonobservant faithful. At that point, they are functionally different from atheists and agnostics. ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/718 "2014-02-12T23:10:22Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, you could back that up, and I think you’d fail. > > But people of faith, who don’t behave according to that faith in any way are, functionally, indistinguishable from agnostics or atheists. > > Mind you, the moment they say to a friend, “Oh, yes, I do believe, I just don’t go to church,” they have acted in accordance with faith, and fall out of your category of absolutely nonobservant faithful. At that point, they are functionally different from atheists and agnostics. While I agree with you that people of faith who don’t behave in a recognizable religious manner, are functionally similar in _appearance_ to agnostics and atheists, I would also like to point out that the number of people who claim affiliation with a religion vs. the number of people who go to church once a week is VERY different. Even the number of people who claim affiliation vs. the number of people who go to church minimally is quite different. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/719 "2014-02-13T00:28:48Z")
> [@YoungKusher](#): > > . . . I would also like to point out that the number of people who claim affiliation with a religion vs. the number of people who go to church once a week is VERY different. . . . I completely agree. There are many (millions?) of “CE” Christians – who go to church only on Christmas and/or Easter. And many who don’t even go that often, but who still self-identify as Christians. One might or might not classify these people as “functionally similar” to atheists. Their very act of self-identification, if asked, is a functional difference. There might be other statistical differences, such as voting patterns, shopping habits, etc. (The trouble with statistical differences is that they might be coincidental effects of some third, unrelated cause.) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2014, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/720 "2014-02-13T13:34:45Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, you could back that up, and I think you’d fail. well sure, you could argue that 10s of thousands isn’t really many since it’s a relative term. > [@](#): > > Mind you, the moment they say to a friend, “Oh, yes, I do believe, I just don’t go to church,” they have acted in accordance with faith, and fall out of your category of absolutely nonobservant faithful. At that point, they are functionally different from atheists and agnostics. Man, that moving of the goal posts was so subtle I barely noticed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=37)