# Faith, religion, and the afterlife: A form of denial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713 "2014-01-02T16:57:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/61 "2014-01-03T22:19:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > . . . So they started an official list of atheists, giving each a number to prove that there were tons of us. Mine was slightly over 1,000, and I think they were well above 2,000 when I left because I got overwhelmed by the volume of posts. Dang! I wanna join up! (I do have an official Marvel Zombie card and number.) The Invisible Pink Unicorn analogy troubles me, because the very name contains a contradiction – how can you be invisible and pink at the same time? I also am sympathetic to the complaint that it’s an ad hoc concept, made up solely for the purpose of argument. This is why I prefer to use Zeus and Odin as examples instead. They _aren’t_ just made up for sake of argument; they really were believed in by millions, for centuries. They’ve got “street cred” as gods. They, for me, are the best answer to Pascal’s Wager. If I profess belief in Jehovah, I risk angering Zeus and/or Odin. Oddly enough, if I profess belief in Zeus, this does not anger Odin. So, if you’re trying to maximize your return from the “Wager,” go with an open, inclusive, friendly pantheon. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/62 "2014-01-03T22:53:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The Invisible Pink Unicorn analogy troubles me, because the very name contains a contradiction – how can you be invisible and pink at the same time? The standard concept of God is _also_ full of paradoxes, thanks to its followers insistence on attributing so many infinite and absolute qualities to it. Also, an invisible object _can_ be meaningfully said to be pink, if it’s pink when it’s _not_ invisible; rather like how one can say that Marvel’s Invisible Woman is a blonde even when she’s invisible. It’s just never _not_ invisible; just like God-believers attribute all sorts of qualities to their god that would be easy to perceive if it ever showed up, which it never does. ---
**Author:** ![randompattern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7993a0/32.png) [@randompattern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randompattern)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/63 "2014-01-03T23:02:04Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > They’ve got “street cred” as gods. They didn’t when they were first invented.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/64 "2014-01-03T23:36:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The Invisible Pink Unicorn analogy troubles me, because the very name contains a contradiction – how can you be invisible and pink at the same time? I also am sympathetic to the complaint that it’s an ad hoc concept, made up solely for the purpose of argument. It’s a mystery! Just like the Trinity - which is no less nonsensical. > [@](#): > > This is why I prefer to use Zeus and Odin as examples instead. They _aren’t_ just made up for sake of argument; they really were believed in by millions, for centuries. They’ve got “street cred” as gods. All those using the good effects of religion as a justification for believing don’t seem to really believe that worshipers of Zeus and Odin were just as devout as they are. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/65 "2014-01-05T05:30:47Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In what other aspects of life is it healthy to harbour illusions or beliefs contrary to what evidence suggests? What evidence? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/66 "2014-01-05T07:27:23Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > What evidence? Racism. Pseudoscience. Propaganda. Conspiracy Theories. Just to name a few examples of illusionary/delusional beliefs that aren’t religion-based or from an otherwise serious mental disorder like schizophrenia. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/67 "2014-01-05T07:34:25Z")
I missed the edit window, but as for evidence, it’s easy enough to gather your own from the types of people that buy and spread that BS. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/68 "2014-01-05T08:30:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > In what other aspects of life is it healthy to harbour illusions or beliefs contrary to what evidence suggests? How about life itself? We seem to make good use of the [overconfidence effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect). > [@Trinopus](#): > > The Invisible Pink Unicorn analogy troubles me, because the very name contains a contradiction – how can you be invisible and pink at the same time? I also am sympathetic to the complaint that it’s an ad hoc concept, made up solely for the purpose of argument. For the sake of Pascal’s Wager maybe, but that’s a load of hogwash anyway. If you think the concept of God is silly, an invisible pink unicorn is an excellent comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/69 "2014-01-05T09:48:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But while people not being dicks might have the right to their wrong opinions, they don’t have the right to be sheltered from exposure to evidence against them. > That goes for teaching evolution. That also means we shouldn’t ban gay people from walking hand in hand because the religious parents of a kid don’t want him to see that there are people not like them. Yup, agreed. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/70 "2014-01-05T12:52:15Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I’m not talking about denial with reality, per se. What I mean is, it’s a coping method plenty of people fall back on, if they have faith, to deal with life issues big and small. > > We’ve all seen cloyingly glurgy sentiments across Facebook, or framed as plaques in peoples homes and so on. > > Everybody has ways to cope, find encouragement or inspiration in times of need, but I see this as something, that if it were any other delusion, would be considered unhealthy to indulge, let alone encourage or enable the individual. Especially to the point of prayer or even waiting passively for divine intervention on issues that should require direct and immediate attention. > > I know what this sounds like to a believer’s ear, as I used to be one. I can hear the entirety of the church rolling around in the pews at the mere mention God is a delusion. And that’s nothing new here, however, I just wanted to bat this thought around for a while here in GD if anyone else would like to weigh in. If there is a Supreme Being who knows all things even before they happened, then I would think prayer was not necessary and even a lack of trust. I would never hold back anything I knew for sure would be good for my children, nor give anything that would be harmful. I would expect a Supreme Being to be better than Me. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/71 "2014-01-05T14:08:39Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > How about life itself? We seem to make good use of the [overconfidence effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect). True. And to enhance the effect humans are seriously into confirmation bias. It’s a one-two punch in the face of reality. But are we better off for it? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/72 "2014-01-05T16:52:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > True. And to enhance the effect humans are seriously into confirmation bias. It’s a one-two punch in the face of reality. But are we better off for it? Maybe in our ability to recognize and search for patterns, it’s a necessary evil. Trouble is, not that many even know what confirmation bias is. It should be taught in kindergarten. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/73 "2014-01-05T17:19:28Z")
It seems many religious folk beat themselves up a lot over their faith and it causes a lot of unnecessary anguish, grief and depression particularly the conservative ones that still preach a fiery hell that awaits all that don’t believe. Whether a believer or non-believer, what helps me is realizing what I/we/anyone believes doesn’t matter or change the outcome one iota in the end. Theology, mostly conservatives thinks it does matter and that they can will themselves through prayer or beliefs for a certain outcome that will change the events by simply thinking or wishing it to be so. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/74 "2014-01-05T17:28:53Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > It seems many religious folk beat themselves up a lot over their faith and it causes a lot of unnecessary anguish, grief and depression particularly the conservative ones that still preach a fiery hell that awaits all that don’t believe. > > Whether a believer or non-believer, what helps me is realizing what I/we/anyone believes doesn’t matter or change the outcome one iota in the end. Theology, mostly conservatives thinks it does matter and that they can will themselves through prayer or beliefs for a certain outcome that will change the events by simply thinking or wishing it to be so. Which is an attitude I find ridiculously common among fervent believers. I used to be there when I was young, and the fear of eternal hell, guilt and shame this outlook brings you is almost unbearable. Which is another reason I think they’re so zealous and cloyingly encouraging one another within it. It’s not so much to help them through life’s usual hardships and issues, it’s to cope with the fear and guilt of continual failure to meet their own impossible expectations of righteousness. It might also explain proselytizing, since misery loves company. When I shed all that, holy shit, I can’t tell you the relief. I’ve never been so happy. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/75 "2014-01-05T17:34:30Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > How about life itself? We seem to make good use of the [overconfidence effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overconfidence_effect). Especially with alcoholism or drug addiction. How many actually believe they can quit anytime vs. those that painfully admit to themselves they’ve got a serious problem? ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/76 "2014-01-06T17:25:49Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > True. And to enhance the effect humans are seriously into confirmation bias. It’s a one-two punch in the face of reality. But are we better off for it? I’m not an academic on the subject, and I haven’t thought enough about it to come to any great conclusions (my inflated ego assures me that I will, despite all evidence to the contrary;)). But just from observation, it seems to have served a purpose for us as a species. Belief in magical sky daddies of all sorts hasn’t stopped great civilizations from growing out of humble beginnings. The cohesion and success of any group–an entire civilization or a clan or a business–seems to depend on belief in a greater purpose for the group. That belief can be as irrational as an invisible pink unicorn, but as long as it doesn’t threaten its survival, the group seems to benefit from it. Individually, I could believe irrationally in God, but as long as it doesn’t compromise the decisions that my survival depends on, I won’t be hurt by it, and will benefit from it if it makes me feel better. And if my ego demands that I feel better about myself than I really am so I can get along in life, who am I to argue? Maybe a better question is, Can we do without it? I have an uneducated hunch that our irrationality is a natural and unavoidable consequence of our existential conundrum: we’re born into a universe without any inherent purpose for our existence but we need a reason for living, so we invent philosophical stuff that gives us some relevance in the world and allows us to continue on our merry way. ---
**Author:** ![Poto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ab992/32.png) [@Poto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poto)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/77 "2014-01-06T17:34:01Z")
These death issues are the most offensive thing for me with the religious. It’s a most natural thing, the only thing to fear is pain. But having survived numerous hangovers in my college days some 30-40 years back, even that can’t be so bad.😃 Weeks and months of pain, that’s another matter.☹ ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/78 "2014-01-06T18:17:21Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Especially with alcoholism or drug addiction. How many actually believe they can quit anytime vs. those that painfully admit to themselves they’ve got a serious problem? Good example, but the overconfidence effect seems to apply to everyone, even if they have no personal issues to deal with. It might even be necessary for a good healthy ego. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/79 "2014-01-06T19:08:29Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Maybe a better question is, Can we do without it? I have an uneducated hunch that our irrationality is a natural and unavoidable consequence of our existential conundrum: we’re born into a universe without any inherent purpose for our existence but we need a reason for living, so we invent philosophical stuff that gives us some relevance in the world and allows us to continue on our merry way. That\* is\* the $64,000 question. My reply to that is: Do animals question their purpose for existence? Does not questioning their place in the universe prevent them from thriving in it? So while creating (and discarding along the way) all kinds of beliefs has been our M.O., I’m not entirely sure it’s been a net benefit to humanity. Perhaps we strive to survive in spite of this particular trait? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/80 "2014-01-06T19:48:19Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > I’m not an academic on the subject, and I haven’t thought enough about it to come to any great conclusions (my inflated ego assures me that I will, despite all evidence to the contrary;)). But just from observation, it seems to have served a purpose for us as a species. Belief in magical sky daddies of all sorts hasn’t stopped great civilizations from growing out of humble beginnings. The cohesion and success of any group–an entire civilization or a clan or a business–seems to depend on belief in a greater purpose for the group. That belief can be as irrational as an invisible pink unicorn, but as long as it doesn’t threaten its survival, the group seems to benefit from it. > > Individually, I could believe irrationally in God, but as long as it doesn’t compromise the decisions that my survival depends on, I won’t be hurt by it, and will benefit from it if it makes me feel better. And if my ego demands that I feel better about myself than I really am so I can get along in life, who am I to argue? > > Maybe a better question is, Can we do without it? I have an uneducated hunch that our irrationality is a natural and unavoidable consequence of our existential conundrum: we’re born into a universe without any inherent purpose for our existence but we need a reason for living, so we invent philosophical stuff that gives us some relevance in the world and allows us to continue on our merry way. I dunno. I’ve been getting along just fine—great, in fact—with my conviction that there is no reason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=5)