# Faith, religion, and the afterlife: A form of denial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713 "2014-01-02T16:57:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 40
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/781 "2014-02-16T21:55:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You tend to do that instead of responding to questions. Very tiresome. Please tell us what your murder scenario has to do with what was being talked about before I asked you to just answer the question, without asking me what I’m getting at ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/782 "2014-02-16T22:00:25Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > I asked you to just answer the question, without asking me what I’m getting at Tie it to the thread first, and I definitely will. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/783 "2014-02-16T22:03:17Z")
> [@YoungKusher](#): > > I didn’t realize I needed to “simply prove you wrong” when all I was really doing was telling you that people who believe differently than you aren’t automatically wrong. When it comes to claiming the existence of magic and miracles, gods and spirits they are. As demonstrated by history they are guaranteed to be wrong. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > Here’s a list of animals that were previously thought to be mythical. Many of these are commonly found in zoos nowadays. [Things you apparently didn’t think of.](http://listverse.com/2010/04/16/10-beasts-that-used-to-be-mythical/) No, they aren’t magic so they are irrelevant to the argument that the supernatural doesn’t exist. > [@Esco](#): > > Lets say there was a murder being committed on a busy street with hundreds of eyewitnesses. Every eye-witness saw the killer clear as day, and all the eye-witnesses picked that same killer out of a police lineup. A scenario which is pretty much the opposite of how claims of mystical and miraculous phenomena work. You don’t have unanimous agreement among “eye witnesses”; on the contrary, you have massive disagreement about what happened, if anything happened, and who if anyone did it. Plus, a claim of murder doesn’t violate physical laws, and there’s a dead body to explain. As opposed to claims of miracles and magic where there’s no evidence anything happened in the first place, just baseless claims. ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/784 "2014-02-16T22:16:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Tie it to the thread first, and I definitely will No, I asked you first. I’m not gonna play games. It sounds like you’re not interested in the subject anyways, or not taking it seriously ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/785 "2014-02-16T22:18:52Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > No, I asked you first. I’m not gonna play games. Putting out an attempted “gotcha” question like that and refusing to explain why is playing games. ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/786 "2014-02-16T22:20:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Putting out an attempted “gotcha” question like that and refusing to explain why is playing games Okay whatever Trihs, but for someone who doesnt believe in this subject you sure spend a lot of time posting in this thread ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/787 "2014-02-16T22:27:58Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Okay whatever Trihs, but for someone who doesnt believe in this subject you sure spend a lot of time posting in this thread But the believers refuse to leave everyone else alone. My lack of belief won’t stop them from trying to force other people to live their life according to their dogma, or harassing, harming or killing other people in the name of their fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/788 "2014-02-16T22:58:42Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > No, I asked you first. I’m not gonna play games. > > It sounds like you’re not interested in the subject anyways, or not taking it seriously The games are yours and yours alone. If you are trying to use it as a analogy it’s a poor one. People who believe they have experienced OBes and/or NDEs do not give the same description, and the descriptions they do give often fly in the face of reality. By the way, in the simplistic murder scenario you put forth, I wouldn’t convict until I heard testimony as to the veracity of the witnesses _and_ the defense’s case-or in other words, the _whole_ story. As far as the thread about NDEs/OBEs you formerly showed interest in, I suspect that you don’t want to talk about it unless only people that support you are allowed to participate in it…but I could be proven wrong easily. ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/789 "2014-02-16T23:01:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But the believers refuse to leave everyone else alone. My lack of belief won’t stop them from trying to force other people to live their life according to their dogma, or harassing, harming or killing other people in the name of their fantasies I’m not forcing anything on you, Trihs. If anything you’re the one who keeps quoting me and pushing your skeptic opinion on me. Go back to the earlier posts in this thread, its you who first quoted me, not the other way around: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17108484&postcount=755](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17108484&postcount=755) ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/790 "2014-02-16T23:09:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The games are yours and yours alone. If you are trying to use it as a analogy it’s a poor one I asked you a very simple question, you’re too afraid to answer it. I’m not the one playing games. Anyways, I’ll give you and Trihs the last word. I’m done with it ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/791 "2014-02-16T23:12:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > When it comes to claiming the existence of magic and miracles, gods and spirits they are. As demonstrated by history they are guaranteed to be wrong. I don’t disagree. But as for the OBO/NDE thing, I don’t think people are calling it magic or supernatural. You’re the one who labeled it as such. It is simply without a sound scientific explanation at the moment, that does not make it a miracle, or magic, or wrong. > [@](#): > > No, they aren’t magic so they are irrelevant to the argument that the supernatural doesn’t exist. Like I said, once it has been shown to be real, it is no longer a miracle, or magical, or supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/792 "2014-02-16T23:13:14Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Thats fine Trihs, if you wanna believe that. > > I’m not here to force my opinion on anyone, all I can do is relate my story on what happened to me when I had my OBE 😉 “No, no, I’ve been through this movie before.” - Dylan. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/793 "2014-02-16T23:18:14Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > If anything you’re the one who keeps quoting me and pushing your skeptic opinion on me. :dubious: This is Great _Debates._ Not “Agrees with Esco”. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > I don’t disagree. But as for the OBO/NDE thing, I don’t think people are calling it magic or supernatural. They can call it what they like; it’s still a supernatural claim. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > Like I said, once it has been shown to be real, it is no longer a miracle, or magical, or supernatural. Only because magic and miracles are _never real._ If magic really worked then it would still be magic even while science was studying it. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/794 "2014-02-16T23:19:21Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > There is lots of evidence OBE’s and NDE’s are real. There are thousands of eye-witness accounts, I can post them if you’d like. Don’t bother; it’s all been done before, a dozen times over. > [@](#): > > Also, when you dream at night you temporarily leave your body and enter the first astral plane. > So there’s nothing religious about it, and a perfectly natural thing to do Sorry, but this is a load of nonsense. If the mind actually left the body, as you describe, it would be able to bring back observations of reality – “What is inside this locked box.” No one has ever accomplished any such feat. There is simply zero objective evidence for this. At present the “null hypothesis” is that people who experience this effect are hallucinating. It is up to you to produce evidence that allows us to reject the null hypothesis. Don’t bother posting it here. We aren’t a science journal. If you have actual hard data, put it into proper scientific form and get it published by someone with some standing. We, here, will review it as amateurs and armchair philosophers, the same way we discuss global warming. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/795 "2014-02-16T23:19:23Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > There are scientific facts to back up what I’m saying though. Just to name 2: > > **1.** Energy (which is what your body is) cannot be destroyed. Even Einstein said so. > > **2.** Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms. When you die, thats exactly what happens, you change form to whats called an “astral body”. > > I know it all sounds totally ridiculous, and if it hadnt happened to me I’d probably laugh my head off if anyone suggested life after death I hate it when people with only a vague understanding of scientific concepts use them to push their woo. Weigh a body before and after death. The weight is the same. Mary Roach has a big section on this in Stiff. The energy in your body is the same. The chemical reactions of life stop. Other reactions continue or begin, as your body rots. No loss of energy. Energy is not destroyed when you turn off a light, same thing here. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/796 "2014-02-16T23:24:43Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > . . . Lets say there was a murder being committed on a busy street with hundreds of eyewitnesses. Every eye-witness saw the killer clear as day, and all the eye-witnesses picked that same killer out of a police lineup. > > Would you, based on that evidence, then convict that killer in a court of law?? > > And please dont ask me what I’m getting at, just answer the question Okay: yes. That sounds like sufficient evidence to convict. My turn: suppose that thousands of people saw entirely different things while they were asleep. Some had lucid dreams. Some had hallucinations. Some had premonitions which didn’t come true. Some heard voices of people who were dead…but these voices never told them anything concrete. Always, “I love you son,” but not, “The combination to my safe is 55-12-9.” None of these effects could be verified objectively. Many contradict each other. Would that stand up in a court of law (or a journal of science?) ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/797 "2014-02-16T23:44:02Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They can call it what they like; it’s still a supernatural claim. Which can potentially be explained by science as a naturally occurring phenomena, that may or may not be what people believe it to be. > [@](#): > > Only because magic and miracles are _never real._ If magic really worked then it would still be magic even while science was studying it. Yupp. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/798 "2014-02-16T23:52:05Z")
> [@YoungKusher](#): > > Which can potentially be explained by science as a naturally occurring phenomena, that may or may not be what people believe it to be. :rolleyes: Souls and the like are entirely imaginary, based on pure fantasy with no evidence to back it up. If something turns out to be real that isn’t like what people think souls are like, then it isn’t souls at all but something else. You can’t just pick any random new discovery and claim it’s a soul even though it doesn’t resemble a soul in any way. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/799 "2014-02-17T00:10:28Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Okay fine, I’ll bite. I do not think that expression means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/800 "2014-02-17T00:21:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > :rolleyes: Souls and the like are entirely imaginary, based on pure fantasy with no evidence to back it up. If something turns out to be real that isn’t like what people think souls are like, then it isn’t souls at all but something else. You can’t just pick any random new discovery and claim it’s a soul even though it doesn’t resemble a soul in any way. Did anyone here actually use the word “soul” other than you? It’s entirely possible that consciousness is not bound to the brain. We talked about this before and the facts remain the same. It has never been shown what causes consciousness to arise. We know that it exists in the brain and that the brain is a functioning requirement for consciousness as we know it. There might be an element to the universe we haven’t discovered yet that is also a requirement for consciousness. Maybe something if this nature could explain what people call the “astral plane.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=39) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=41)