# Faith, religion, and the afterlife: A form of denial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713 "2014-01-02T16:57:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/801 "2014-02-17T00:45:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Okay: yes. That sounds like sufficient evidence to convict Then if you think thats enough to convict, why cant you except the thousands of case reports of people who claimed they’ve seen the astral world when they died?? See here: [http://www.near-death.com/](http://www.near-death.com/) I dont really care if it would stand up in a journal of science. I know what happened to me, and it was as real as me typing this post right now . ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/802 "2014-02-17T00:47:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I hate it when people with only a vague understanding of scientific concepts use them to push their woo. > > Weigh a body before and after death. The weight is the same Nope, thats wrong. The soul (or astral body) weighs between 15 and 29 grams: > **[21 grams experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29)** > > The 21 grams experiment refers to a study published in 1907 by Duncan MacDougall, a physician from Haverhill, Massachusetts. MacDougall hypothesized that souls have physical weight, and attempted to measure the mass lost by a human when the soul departed the body. MacDougall attempted to measure the mass change of six patients at the moment of death. One of the six subjects lost three-quarters of an ounce (21.3 grams). > MacDougall stated his experiment would have to be repeated many times befo... ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/803 "2014-02-17T00:56:15Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Then if you think thats enough to convict, why cant you except the thousands of case reports of people who claimed they’ve seen the astral world when they died?? See here: [http://www.near-death.com/](http://www.near-death.com/) > > I dont really care if it would stand up in a journal of science. I know what happened to me, and it was as real as me typing this post right now > > . You get that there is a difference between objective (what you described in your ‘gotcha’ question) evidence and subjective evidence (what you are now describing) - right? You get that they are entirely different things and that your attempted gotcha fails all reason due to that, right? One of these things is not like the other. If a 1000 people - or even a million people - ‘claimed’ to have seen someone murder another person - but had every detail other than the claim itself different - no one would be convicted based on that evidence alone - further - on your original question - you had the folks being ‘eye witness’ to an event that was observable to all - and even then - without additional physical evidence (ie - the body and other physical evidence) - the testimoney of the eye witness would not, in and of itself, be enough to convict. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/804 "2014-02-17T01:09:58Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Not sure why that was so much fun for you. Usually when someone posts “did so” it’s done sarcastically because the person he responded to just wrote something like “did.” But I didn’t do that. I thoroughly explained how I didn’t take anything out of context. did not ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/805 "2014-02-17T01:24:20Z")
If you wanna read a good book on all this phenomenon “Our Ultimate Reality” is probably the best book I ever read: Pdf file: [worldprayerfoundation.com](http://www.worldprayerfoundation.com/Our%20Ultimate%20Reality.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/806 "2014-02-17T01:51:12Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Then if you think thats enough to convict, why cant you except the thousands of case reports of people who claimed they’ve seen the astral world when they died?? . . . The two examples are light-years apart. Show me the unanimity of out-of-body accounts regarding objective identification of the experience. In your “crime” example, you said that everyone successfully picked the same suspect out of an identification line. Nothing even remotely close to this has ever happened with regard to out-of-body events. Your comparison is grotesquely inadequate. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/807 "2014-02-17T01:53:43Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Nope, thats wrong. The soul (or astral body) weighs between 15 and 29 grams: > > [21 grams experiment - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29) No, that’s wrong: weight at death does not diminish. You’re quoting absurdities. 15 grams? That’s well within our capability of measuring. That would have been evident in the 1850s. Today, a deficiency of tens of milligrams could be detected. You’re not being in the least convincing to anyone here (and that’s most of us) who know at least the elements of high-school science. ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/808 "2014-02-17T02:03:52Z")
Okay guys, then dont believe any of it. It doesnt really matter to me. Cheers ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/809 "2014-02-17T02:10:55Z")
For those that do wanna learn more about this subject, you can learn the art of going out-of-body (or astral projection) yourself. Its time consuming, and it’ll take months to learn it, but in the end I feel its worth it: Book: [http://www.amazon.ca/Mastering-Astral-Projection-Out-Body/dp/0738704679](http://www.amazon.ca/Mastering-Astral-Projection-Out-Body/dp/0738704679) Pdf Book: [http://worldtracker.org/media/library/Metaphysics%20&%20Spirituality/Robert%20Bruce%20MASTERING%20ASTRAL%20PROJECTION.pdf](http://worldtracker.org/media/library/Metaphysics%20&%20Spirituality/Robert%20Bruce%20MASTERING%20ASTRAL%20PROJECTION.pdf) There’s also this cool site: [http://obe4u.com/](http://obe4u.com/) And another awesome free e-book: [http://www.obe4u.com/files/Teaching\_Out-of-Body\_Travel\_And\_Lucid\_Dreaming.pdf](http://www.obe4u.com/files/Teaching_Out-of-Body_Travel_And_Lucid_Dreaming.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/810 "2014-02-17T02:18:40Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > For those that do wanna learn more about this subject, you can learn the art of going out-of-body (or astral projection) yourself. Its time consuming, and it’ll take months to learn it, but in the end I feel its worth it: Do you realize there’s a million dollar prize that will be handed to you if you prove you can do this? ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/811 "2014-02-17T02:27:36Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > Do you realize there’s a million dollar prize that will be handed to you if you prove you can do this? Astral projection =/= psychic ability. If you’re gonna debate this could you at least read a few wiki entries on what astral projection actually entails ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/812 "2014-02-17T02:33:36Z")
I didn’t infer that astral projection equals psychic ability and I wasn’t debating you. Don’t answer the question if you don’t want to; no skin off my apple. ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/813 "2014-02-17T02:39:32Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I didn’t infer that astral projection equals psychic ability and I wasn’t debating you. Don’t answer the question if you don’t want to; no skin off my apple. You were talking aboot the million dollar challenge James Randi has on proving psychic abilities, werent you?? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/814 "2014-02-17T02:45:42Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > You were talking aboot the million dollar challenge James Randi has on proving psychic abilities, werent you?? No, I was not. I was talking about the James Randi Educational Foundation Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge to any person who demonstrates any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal ability. ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/815 "2014-02-17T02:57:46Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > No, I was not. I was talking about the James Randi Educational Foundation Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge to any person who demonstrates any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal ability Astral projection and lucid dreaming are not supernatural or paranormal ability. Just as dreaming at night is not supernatural or paranormal. Wanna try again, and this time at least do a little research on both . ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/816 "2014-02-17T03:06:32Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Astral projection and lucid dreaming are not supernatural or paranormal ability. Just as dreaming at night is not supernatural or paranormal. > > Wanna try again, and this time at least do a little research on both . . . We’ve done our research. We’re also waiting for evidence. Without evidence, the subject is titanically uninteresting. And, look, we’ve been through it all before here. Before your time, we’ve had guys here who met God. That’s right, they met God. So you’re just bringing petty stuff to the table. Of course, their evidence for having met God was…the same as your evidence for the human body losing 15 grams of mass at death: nil. (Except you’ve got a web site you can point to. But we can point to the Time Cube just as easily. What you haven’t got is…wait for it…evidence.) Also, the James Randi foundation considers astral projection to be supernatural, so you would qualify for their prize if you could accomplish it. Just don’t tell them it’s “natural.” Their definitions, their money. The problem is, you can’t accomplish it by natural means, either, so your disclaimer of supernaturalism is moot. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/817 "2014-02-17T03:07:49Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Astral projection and lucid dreaming are not supernatural or paranormal ability. Just as dreaming at night is not supernatural or paranormal. > > Wanna try again, and this time at least do a little research on both Many claim that when going to the astral plane, one can talk to dead people. You claimed the astral plane is where dead people are. Can you communicate with them? You said you were going to start a detailed thread on this today. Where is it? Doing research regarding what others say isn’t going to help me understand what your claims are. You mentioned out of body experiences and dead people on another plane that can be visited. That would qualify as supernatural or paranormal. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/818 "2014-02-17T03:19:45Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > did not Knock it off. And **x-ray vision** , given the dancing that he has done for several posts, you would be well advised to stop encouraging him with your responses. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/819 "2014-02-17T03:24:19Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Wanna try again, and this time at least do a little research on both That is not how it works. You wandered in here making odd claims that you are now refusing to defend on the grounds that the terms you used have a different meaning or context than their usages in normal conversation. If you want to toss that stuff out, it is up to you to provide the explanations–without being snide about it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/820 "2014-02-17T03:30:21Z")
Then boys and girls, dont believe any of it. I really dont care either way. I’ll stop posting in this thread if the moderator wants me to. No problemo 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=42)