# Faith, religion, and the afterlife: A form of denial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713 "2014-01-02T16:57:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/821 "2014-02-17T03:36:50Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Then boys and girls, dont believe any of it. I really dont care either way. > > I’ll stop posting in this thread if the moderator wants me to. No problemo 😉 I don’t care if you post in this thread. I do care if you make silly claims that you refuse to support and then make snide remarks that other posters have not done your homework for you. (There is a very easy way to prove OBE’s and no OBE adherent has ever actually bothered to do it, so your sarcasm comes across as a defense mechanism to help you avoid posting substantive responses.) [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/822 "2014-02-17T03:50:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I don’t care if you post in this thread. > > I do care if you make silly claims that you refuse to support and then make snide remarks that other posters have not done your homework for you. > > (There is a very easy way to prove OBE’s and no OBE adherent has ever actually bothered to do it, so your sarcasm comes across as a defense mechanism to help you avoid posting substantive responses.) > > [/Moderating] I think you read it the wrong way. It wasnt snide, I just wish people would do more research on the topic before dismissing it right off the bat out of a knee-jerk reaction. That goes for you too, Deb. I suspect you done little to no research on astral projection, yet your first knee-jerk reaction was this sounds weird, so it must all be bullshit. Unless of course I’m mistaken, and you have done lots of research on the topic. In that case my apologies ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/823 "2014-02-17T05:06:16Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Nope, thats wrong. The soul (or astral body) weighs between 15 and 29 grams: > > [21 grams experiment - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29) Specifically addressed in Roach’s book. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/824 "2014-02-17T05:09:22Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Okay: yes. That sounds like sufficient evidence to convict. If I were on a jury, and the only evidence the state produced was a few eye witness accounts, I’d be very likely to vote not guilty. No forensics? No motive? No weapon? We’ve had multiple consistent eye witness accounts of an airship flying around in the 1890s - which we know never happened. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/825 "2014-02-17T05:20:18Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > For those that do wanna learn more about this subject, you can learn the art of going out-of-body (or astral projection) yourself. Its time consuming, and it’ll take months to learn it, but in the end I feel its worth it: > > Book: [Mastering Astral Projection: 90-day Guide to Out-of-Body Experience: Bruce, Robert, Mercer, Brian: 9780738704678: Books - Amazon.ca](http://www.amazon.ca/Mastering-Astral-Projection-Out-Body/dp/0738704679) > > Pdf Book: [worldtracker.org](http://worldtracker.org/media/library/Metaphysics%20&%20Spirituality/Robert%20Bruce%20MASTERING%20ASTRAL%20PROJECTION.pdf) > > There’s also this cool site: [http://obe4u.com/](http://obe4u.com/) > > And another awesome free e-book: [http://www.obe4u.com/files/Teaching\_Out-of-Body\_Travel\_And\_Lucid\_Dreaming.pdf](http://www.obe4u.com/files/Teaching_Out-of-Body_Travel_And_Lucid_Dreaming.pdf) There are two possibilities. In yours, everything we know about how the brain works is wrong, since if you can project your mind it cannot be physical. In the second, since the brain determines where you think you are, if it is somehow damaged or you train it to delude itself, you can convince yourself you have traveled outside your body. [Here](https://www.coursera.org/course/brainspace) is a class about the brain’s sense of location - it is hard to find a good cite. Since it is clearly evolutionarily advantageous to know where you are, such brain function is less than surprising. I totally buy that one can teach himself how to have these experiences, assuming you are more or less wired for it. Doesn’t mean they actually happen. Them old astral projections are only in your head. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/826 "2014-02-17T06:06:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If I were on a jury, and the only evidence the state produced was a few eye witness accounts, I’d be very likely to vote not guilty. No forensics? No motive? No weapon? We’ve had multiple consistent eye witness accounts of an airship flying around in the 1890s - which we know never happened. Well, he also had them pick the suspect out of a line-up, so that’s an additional element. People have certainly been convicted of lesser crimes on eyewitness testimony alone, although I couldn’t say if it’s ever been a murder rap. Anyway, I was willing to give our colleague the opening he asked for. It didn’t lead anywhere, so it doesn’t seem to matter. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/827 "2014-02-18T21:24:33Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Then if you think thats enough to convict, why cant you except the thousands of case reports of people who claimed they’ve seen the astral world when they died?? See here: [http://www.near-death.com/](http://www.near-death.com/) > > I dont really care if it would stand up in a journal of science. I know what happened to me, and it was as real as me typing this post right now > > . The thing about Hallucinations is that it seems so real to the one having them. The mind can create much, just like a person with dementia. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/828 "2014-02-18T21:26:49Z")
> [@Esco](#): > > Nope, thats wrong. The soul (or astral body) weighs between 15 and 29 grams: > > [21 grams experiment - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_%28doctor%29) If it has weight then for sure it is just not a spirit, A spirit that can go through walls etc. would not have weight! ---
**Author:** ![rustyrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed8c4c/32.png) [@rustyrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rustyrunner)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/829 "2014-02-24T13:19:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It is. It’s a perfectly valid analogy; an invisible pink unicorn is no more absurd than God; less so, if anything. That’s the point of using such an impossibility as an invisible pink unicorn; if it’s reasonable to believe in something as absurd as God, then why _not_ believe in the IPU? I know I am going to regret asking this, but could you please explain how God is an absurdity compared to understanding that everything came from nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/830 "2014-02-24T13:44:02Z")
> [@rustyrunner](#): > > I know I am going to regret asking this, but could you please explain how God is an absurdity compared to understanding that everything came from nothing. “God” is blatantly nothing more than human anthropomorphism, wish fulfillment, patriarchalism (seriously, what’s the point of a male god without a goddess?), and egotism. It’s just a myth created by ignorant primitives who hadn’t the first clue about how the universe worked but desperately wanted to think themselves important. It’s also logically impossible thanks all to the infinite qualities its followers have added to it. “Nothing” on the other hand is just nothing; it’s simple, it’s not blatantly designed to cater to human fantasies like “God” is. And I don’t know where everything came from for sure; whatever the universe came from might have been “nothing”, it might have always existed. But I am certain that no Iron Age myths were involved, and that’s all that “God” is; the leftover fantasy of a tribe of ignorant barbarians. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/831 "2014-02-24T17:13:53Z")
> [@rustyrunner](#): > > I know I am going to regret asking this, but could you please explain how God is an absurdity compared to understanding that everything came from nothing. Is it easier to believe that undifferentiated energy came from nothing versus the most complex entity imaginable? Plus. particles come from nothing all the time. As long as the net energy is zero there is no reason they couldn’t - in fact they must. That it makes no sense to you makes no difference at the quantum level. And, precisely what kind of god do you think created things? Hairy thunderer or cosmic muffin? Someone who sees each sparrow fall or doesn’t give a crap? If someone created our universe, it is most likely a grad student in some other and very advanced brane. ---
**Author:** ![mandala](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mandala/32/95_2.png) [@mandala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mandala)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/832 "2014-02-26T03:30:55Z")
“My religion sucks, so yours must, too.” Questions about faith, god, afterlife and such, on this forum, are usually heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian doctrine, and I usually refrain from weighing in, both because I am out of my depth about J-C doctrine and also because such questions make little sense from an Eastern perspective. Anyone with questions about the “religion/god/afterlife” trinity is strongly recommended to turn to Eastern/Indic systems such as Hinduism, Buddhism, or even Sufi Islam for the straight dope. I dare say these systems are far more subtle, sophisticated and meaningful that the J-C framework, which in my honest opinion is rich in doctrine but ridiculously ill-equipped to comment on subtle philosophical matters. No surprise a thinking person at once rejects the Church and its dogma that has stifled scientific advancement for centuries. Unfortunately, these questions, specific to the J-C context, have been generalized to encompass all religions all over the world, because if the Western man cant see sense in his religion, it means all religions all over the world, including those with 5000 year histories, are inaccurate, “delusional” and incapable of standing up to scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![rustyrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed8c4c/32.png) [@rustyrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rustyrunner)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/833 "2014-02-26T12:14:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “God” is blatantly nothing more than human anthropomorphism, wish fulfillment, patriarchalism (seriously, what’s the point of a male god without a goddess?), and egotism. It’s just a myth created by ignorant primitives who hadn’t the first clue about how the universe worked but desperately wanted to think themselves important. It’s also logically impossible thanks all to the infinite qualities its followers have added to it. “Nothing” on the other hand is just nothing; it’s simple, it’s not blatantly designed to cater to human fantasies like “God” is. > > And I don’t know where everything came from for sure; whatever the universe came from might have been “nothing”, it might have always existed. But I am certain that no Iron Age myths were involved, and that’s all that “God” is; the leftover fantasy of a tribe of ignorant barbarians. I can see now why atheism is a religion. I didn’t realize God had to mean what “you” think. I thought it could mean something we have no way of knowing the existence of until we know everything, which you obviously do. No hang on… there seems to be some indecision in your last sentence about big bang and steady state or rainbow gravity theories. I would agree in part with your left over Iron Age mythology. except it is a giant leap of faith and credibility to assume nobody would have thought of God had that period not existed. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/834 "2014-02-26T12:55:29Z")
> [@rustyrunner](#): > > I didn’t realize God had to mean what “you” think. I thought it could mean something we have no way of knowing the existence of until we know everything, which you obviously do. You thought wrong then. No idea where you got that thought from, after centuries upon centuries of religious people claiming to know \*exactly \*what God is about. > [@](#): > > No hang on… there seems to be some indecision in your last sentence about big bang and steady state or rainbow gravity theories. So? Your point? > [@](#): > > I would agree in part with your left over Iron Age mythology. except it is a giant leap of faith and credibility to assume nobody would have thought of God had that period not existed. Again you seem to be trying to make some sort of point here, could you please rephrase so it turns into a coherent argument? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/835 "2014-02-26T12:59:26Z")
> [@rustyrunner](#): > > I can see now why atheism is a religion. Atheism is not a religion. It is merely a lack of belief in a deity. Of course, being human, some atheists promote their lack of belief with religious fervor, but atheism is still not a religion. ---
**Author:** ![rustyrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed8c4c/32.png) [@rustyrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rustyrunner)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/836 "2014-02-26T13:35:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Atheism is not a religion. It is merely a lack of belief in a deity. > Of course, being human, some atheists promote their lack of belief with religious fervor, but atheism is still not a religion. Sorry. I should have said, “Now I realize why atheism can be perceived as a religion.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/837 "2014-02-26T15:19:31Z")
> [@rustyrunner](#): > > I didn’t realize God had to mean what “you” think. I thought it could mean something we have no way of knowing the existence of until we know everything, which you obviously do. God is nothing more than a fantasy. That’s what “God” means; a particular fantasy. And it isn’t necessary to “know everything” or even much at all to know that, any more than someone needs to “know everything” to know that Santa Claus is a fantasy. > [@rustyrunner](#): > > I would agree in part with your left over Iron Age mythology. except it is a giant leap of faith and credibility to assume nobody would have thought of God had that period not existed. Not at all. “God” is a fantasy created by a particular culture; if that culture had never existed then neither would God. Just as if Tolkien had never existed then neither would Sauron; other “supernatural evil overlord” characters would have, but not Sauron specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/838 "2014-02-26T20:26:08Z")
> [@rustyrunner](#): > > I can see now why atheism is a religion. I didn’t realize God had to mean what “you” think. I thought it could mean something we have no way of knowing the existence of until we know everything, which you obviously do. > > No hang on… there seems to be some indecision in your last sentence about big bang and steady state or rainbow gravity theories. > > I would agree in part with your left over Iron Age mythology. except it is a giant leap of faith and credibility to assume nobody would have thought of God had that period not existed. So, tell us what god you believe in and give us his or her characteristics. What I’ve seen is that gods throughout history look a lot like the cultures that created them, and not at all like the gods of other cultures. Why would this be? Is god like a chameleon, so insecure that he can’t take on his own form in different places? Are there lots of gods? If you can’t answer these questions, perhaps you’ll accept the simplest explanation - that there are no gods, and they all got made up. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/839 "2014-02-26T20:53:06Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Ah, the dear old invisible pink unicorn argument. … Don’t be ridiculous. If the unicorn is invisible, it cannot _also_ be pink. A _translucent_ pink unicorn is much more believable. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/840 "2014-02-26T21:23:19Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Don’t be ridiculous. If the unicorn is invisible, it cannot _also_ be pink. A _translucent_ pink unicorn is much more believable. If you had faith, you would see that the invisible one is indeed pink - but this quality is reserved for only the most faithful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=43)