# Faith, religion, and the afterlife: A form of denial **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713 "2014-01-02T16:57:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/81 "2014-01-08T02:34:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So while creating (and discarding along the way) all kinds of beliefs has been our M.O., I’m not entirely sure it’s been a net benefit to humanity. Perhaps we strive to survive in spite of this particular trait? Religion was just a tool we used to make sense of the world when there was nothing else available, like using an ox to pull a plough before the tractor was invented. Since we found a better tool in science, religion has less use for us now, but in its time, it served a purpose. It’s also been used to control us politically, but we need to be controlled if we don’t want to sink into anarchy, so even that was of some practical benefit. The fact that leaders could use that control for their egomaniacal ambitions doesn’t make the use of religion itself evil. Instead of blaming it for the wrongs of the world, I’d rather see leaders being held accountable for their actions (something that democracy is intended to do but that’s another story). Now that we have less need for religion, it’s losing its power to control us, and eventually, it’ll end up collecting dust at the back of the shop with all the other archaic tools. ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/82 "2014-01-08T02:55:52Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I dunno. I’ve been getting along just fine—great, in fact—with my conviction that there is no reason. That’s fine for you (and me too, just so you know), but some people seem to need a reason beyond their simple existence. It might be irrational, but if we’re all irrational in some way, should we condemn them for it? Anecdote alert (but it has a point) – I’ve known the wife of a good friend for about 25 years, ever since they started dating. She’s humble and unassuming, warm and outgoing, and an incredibly good wife, mother, and friend. In my books, she’s a model human being who leads a quiet but exemplary life. Well, a couple of years ago, I found out that she believes in God, goes to church regularly, and teaches Sunday school. In the 25 years I’ve known her, she has never once even hinted at God or religion so it came as a bit of a shock, but apparently it makes her feel better about her existence. I suspect that without it, she would be less of the person she is. Should I respect her any less now that I know she’s a believer? ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/83 "2014-01-08T04:30:58Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Everybody has ways to cope, find encouragement or inspiration in times of need, but I see this as something, that if it were any other delusion, would be considered unhealthy to indulge, let alone encourage or enable the individual. Especially to the point of prayer or even waiting passively for divine intervention on issues that should require direct and immediate attention. > > I know what this sounds like to a believer’s ear, as I used to be one. I can hear the entirety of the church rolling around in the pews at the mere mention God is a delusion. And that’s nothing new here, however, I just wanted to bat this thought around for a while here in GD if anyone else would like to weigh in. Do you know what this sounds like to a non-believers ear? It sounds just as bad. Why would it be unhealthy? There are studies that show simply believing in something has a DIRECT, positive correlation to your physical health. So, if believers have lower stress levels, sleep better at night, and are more immune to disease, then why are you knockin’ em? > **[How Positive Thinking Can Make You An All-Around Better Person](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/positive-thinking_b_3512202)** > > Positive thinking isn't just a soft and fluffy feel-good term. Yes, it's great to simply "be happy," but those moments of happiness are also critical for opening your mind to explore and build the skills that become so valuable in other areas of your... I would also like to add that there is most certainly a number of delusions you(and every other person for that matter) fall victim to with every waking moment. It’s a coping mechanism by itself. If we didn’t have it, everybody would be a lot more depressed and rendered completely unable to “live in the moment.” > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It is. It’s a perfectly valid analogy; an invisible pink unicorn is no more absurd than God; less so, if anything. That’s the point of using such an impossibility as an invisible pink unicorn; if it’s reasonable to believe in something as absurd as God, then why _not_ believe in the IPU? Lol. Except an invisible pink unicorn is not intertwined with culture and history around the world going back thousands of years… Come on, let’s be serious and not degrade the concept of God with such a profoundly irrelevant analogy. God is something/someone people can relate to on a personal level. An IPU is not, because it resembles an animal with no inherent ability to understand human issues. Also, why is the belief in God so “absurd?” > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I agree. Your argument’s not new and it’s not getting any less lame as time goes on. Well, to any new users or people who haven’t participated in this discussion before, this might be an interesting topic. > [@monstro](#): > > This is why I think “belief” has a good likelihood of being dangerous. If someone is rational and bases their conscience thinking on reason, proven facts, and established theories, they allow their understanding to change without the crisis of losing face. They cn always say they were operating on the best knowledge they had at the time. But belief doesn’t work this way. I think your assuming waaay too much here. I want to be very clear and say that God is totally different from Religion. My Mom is a fervent believer and the most knowledgeable one i know. She attends a non-denominational church that uses the Bible to try and cultivate spiritual maturity and how to be a good person. She also teaches Bible study there and has done so for 10 years. She has told me many times that god HATES religion. So, I think the points you made about religious zealots are accurate. My point is that you _can_ maintain belief and not make a fool out of yourself very easily. It’s called not being an ignorant religious zealot. I think I might start a new thread about the difference between the notion of God, and religion. I’m curious to see what all the atheists have to say about why it’s absurd to believe in a divine being and also to see how many of them actually understand the difference from religion. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/84 "2014-01-08T05:04:42Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Religion was just a tool we used to make sense of the world when there was nothing else available . . . > > Now that we have less need for religion, it’s losing its power to control us . . . I like the way you said “less need for religion” and not “no need for religion.” Religion (or philosophy) is still the only way to make sense of those parts of the world that simply don’t make sense. When someone says, “God will prevent my child from getting tetanus, so I don’t need vaccination,” that’s stupid (and also evil.) But when someone says, “I believe that the universe is in charge of a loving, caring entity,” that isn’t stupid and it isn’t evil. It’s an idea that cannot be addressed scientifically, and it is an idea that has the power to make some people’s lives better. > [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > . . . I found out that she believes in God, goes to church regularly, and teaches Sunday school. . . . > > Should I respect her any less now that I know she’s a believer? For that reason alone, no. The mere fact that she has faith is, in itself, entirely neutral. If she says, “God loves you” once in a while, that’s no real problem. If she says, “You have to believe everything Pastor Bobby says, or else you’ll burn in hell forever,” then that might be an obstacle to maintaining a friendship. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/85 "2014-01-08T06:13:56Z")
> [@YoungKusher](#): > > So, if believers have lower stress levels, sleep better at night, and are more immune to disease, then why are you knockin’ em? Because they cause immense harm and suffering to themselves and others. Go tell the kid disowned or abused for being homosexual or an atheist or switching religions how religion means less stress. Go tell the people killed by religious terrorists that. Go tell the wife beaten because God demands she be subordinate to the husband, or the child beaten because God says that “spare the rod, spoil the child”. And while I’m sure you’ll insist that such things somehow don’t count, they most certainly do. If you are trying to claim that religion make people better off and refuse to acknowledge that anything bad that comes from religion counts, then you are just assuming your conclusion not demonstrating it. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > Except an invisible pink unicorn is not intertwined with culture and history around the world going back thousands of years… Come on, let’s be serious and not degrade the concept of God with such a profoundly irrelevant analogy. Age doesn’t make something more valid. And it’s impossible to degrade a concept as blatantly ridiculous and obnoxious as “God”, it’s already at the bottom. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > God is something/someone people can relate to on a personal level. No, they can’t; he doesn’t exist. He says nothing, he does nothing; there’s nothing to relate to. If a person can “relate” to _that_ they can relate to a blank wall just as easily. The wall is just as responsive after all. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > Also, why is the belief in God so “absurd?” Because among other things it’s blatant wish fulfillment with zero evidence, based on the mythology of ignorant barbarians, as commonly conceived it breaks physical laws, is logically contradictory and contradicts the state of the world & historical facts. _Santa Claus_ is more plausible, and few would disagree that an adult believing in Santa Claus would be absurd. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > I’m curious to see what all the atheists have to say about why it’s absurd to believe in a divine being and also to see how many of them actually understand the difference from religion. “God” is a purely religious idea. > [@Trinopus](#): > > I like the way you said “less need for religion” and not “no need for religion.” Religion (or philosophy) is still the only way to make sense of those parts of the world that simply don’t make sense. No, it doesn’t “make sense” of anything. Simply making things up is not “making sense” of something. And there is not and never has been any “need” for religion. Anything constructive it can do can be done better by other means. > [@Trinopus](#): > > When someone says, “God will prevent my child from getting tetanus, so I don’t need vaccination,” that’s stupid (and also evil.) But when someone says, “I believe that the universe is in charge of a loving, caring entity,” that isn’t stupid and it isn’t evil. It is stupid - it blatantly contradicts reality - and it’s evil in its effects if not its intentions. Among other things, since the world is full of evil believing that the world is run by a just entity immediately leads to rationalization as to why all of those evils are good and should not be remedied. It leads to defining"loving and caring" in ways that are indistinguishable from being _un_caring or sadistic. ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/86 "2014-01-08T08:22:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because they cause immense harm and suffering to themselves and others. Go tell the kid disowned or abused for being homosexual or an atheist or switching religions how religion means less stress. Go tell the people killed by religious terrorists that. Go tell the wife beaten because God demands she be subordinate to the husband, or the child beaten because God says that “spare the rod, spoil the child”. > > And while I’m sure you’ll insist that such things somehow don’t count, they most certainly do. If you are trying to claim that religion make people better off and refuse to acknowledge that anything bad that comes from religion counts, then you are just assuming your conclusion not demonstrating it. Wow. You are most opinionated… Let me start by saying that virtually none of what I said in my previous post refers specifically to any religion or religion at all for that matter. Take your “I hate Bible thumpin Christians” talk somewhere else bud. I NEVER implied that religion or believing in God has zero bad implications. I’ve read _God Is Not Great—How Religion Poisons Everything_ by Christopher Hitchens and also _The Case For Christ_ by Lee Strobel. Both great books for exploring, understanding, and fighting ignorance against the topic at hand for anyone who is interested. Also, check out _Death By A Black Hole_ while your at it, but i forget who the author is. Anyways, you took my post to the OP completely out of context with your response. I was talking specifically about the OP’s assertion that believing in God is somehow just an unhealthy indulgence in a delusion, when in fact it’s simply not all that unhealthy when done appropriately. Let me be very clear! I’m not talking about the “believer’s” actions! I’m talking about their well-being when they use God “to cope, find encouragement or inspiration in times of need.” > [@](#): > > Age doesn’t make something more valid. And it’s impossible to degrade a concept as blatantly ridiculous and obnoxious as “God”, it’s already at the bottom. Gee, well aren’t you just the most informative poster… I never said that age makes something more valid. I was simply demonstrating that comparing the notion of God to something made up off the top of someones head is highly inaccurate. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that God does not exist… so I don’t see how it could seem “blatantly ridiculous and obnoxious” to any rational person. And before you spout off again, I’m talking about an omniscient, omnipotent being, not the Christain God. > [@](#): > > No, they can’t; he doesn’t exist. He says nothing, he does nothing; there’s nothing to relate to. If a person can “relate” to that they can relate to a blank wall just as easily. The wall is just as responsive after all. I’m no psychologist, but it sounds like there might be a deeper issue here for you. You seem almost angry about it. If you think God needs to say or do something to provide a spiritual relationship, then you really have no idea how people relate to God. You really shouldn’t argue about things you don’t understand. Just let this one be. > [@](#): > > Because among other things it’s blatant wish fulfillment with zero evidence, based on the mythology of ignorant barbarians, as commonly conceived it breaks physical laws, is logically contradictory and contradicts the state of the world & historical facts. Santa Claus is more plausible, and few would disagree that an adult believing in Santa Claus would be absurd. Any rational person isn’t going to find the Bible to be literal. It’s antiquated in the details, has gone though translations, and was written by who? PEOPLE, not God himself. As for wish fulfillment, that’s a broad phrase. Belief is a powerful thing, but I don’t think it does much more than the overconfidence effect and the fact that positive thinking leads to being more healthy. > [@](#): > > “God” is a purely religious idea. Lol your funny. Oh wait, your serious!?!? God is not a purely religious idea. It can stand by itself. > [@](#): > > It is stupid - it blatantly contradicts reality - and it’s evil in its effects if not its intentions. Among other things, since the world is full of evil believing that the world is run by a just entity immediately leads to rationalization as to why all of those evils are good and should not be remedied. It leads to defining"loving and caring" in ways that are indistinguishable from being uncaring or sadistic. What is your concept of reality? Do you know what Membrane Theory is? There could easily be some sort of omniscient, omnipotent being that exists all around us defying “reality” because it exists in multiple dimensions at the same time. As far as your “evil world” goes. Here’s a simplified version of the original. I once read a story about a guy who died in a car accident. He met god in the afterlife and immediately he asked God about his wife and Daughter. God said they would be fine and not to worry about them. So then he asked God what happens now? And God told him that he was now going to be reborn as a peasant’s daughter in 1682. The guy freaked and said what about Heaven?? So God explained what is really going on. God told him that he is his child and he is still growing up. In order to finish growing up and become a “God” like him, he must first live the life of every single person that has ever lived and learn from all of their experiences. Only when his “soul” has a thorough understanding of all things good or bad, can he grow up. There are limitless amounts of abstract ideas out there that still easily allow for God to exist and to be important to us. Religion is irrelevant in this matter. I understand you’re talking specifically about the Christian God, but my point is that you can believe in God and trust that he is a “just” being; your not limited to what religions have made God out to be. There are an endless number of scenarios way over your head, and anyone else’s for that matter, where all of these “sadistic” acts are somehow not that important in the grand scheme of things. Hence, the “Master Plan.” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/87 "2014-01-08T09:06:06Z")
> [@YoungKusher](#): > > Let me start by saying that virtually none of what I said in my previous post refers specifically to any religion or religion at all for that matter. As soon as you bring up God or gods, you are speaking of religion. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > Take your “I hate Bible thumpin Christians” talk somewhere else bud. I NEVER implied that religion or believing in God has zero bad implications. When you try to claim that religion is beneficial by claiming it has good effects without mentioning the bad ones, that’s what you are doing. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > Anyways, you took my post to the OP completely out of context with your response. I was talking specifically about the OP’s assertion that believing in God is somehow just an unhealthy indulgence in a delusion, when in fact it’s simply not all that unhealthy when done appropriately. Let me be very clear! I’m not talking about the “believer’s” actions! I’m talking about their well-being when they use God “to cope, find encouragement or inspiration in times of need.” And I disagree. It’s inherently psychologically unhealthy and dangerous to believe in God due the the necessary habits of thought to do so. Or to believe in gods plural for that matter; for all you claim not to be advocating a specific religion you keep on pushing the very Christian concept of an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being referred to as God. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > Gee, well aren’t you just the most informative poster… I never said that age makes something more valid. I was simply demonstrating that comparing the notion of God to something made up off the top of someones head is highly inaccurate. You were most certainly arguing that the age of “God” somehow made the idea more plausible. And the idea of “God” is just as made up as the Invincible Pink Unicorn. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > There is no scientific evidence to suggest that God does not exist… Of course there is; pretty much all of physics to begin with. And the omnipotent, omniscient god you are advocating runs into problems with pure logic, not just science. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > And before you spout off again, I’m talking about an omniscient, omnipotent being, not the Christain God. In other words, the Christian God. You are just doing that goalpost shifting thing people arguing for God like to do, where you start suddenly using an ultra-vague version of “God” whose supposed qualities constantly shift with the argument. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > If you think God needs to say or do something to provide a spiritual relationship, then you really have no idea how people relate to God. They don’t. At all. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > God is not a purely religious idea. It can stand by itself. No, it can’t. It originated from religion - the Abrahamic religions to be specific, it’s not even as generic as you are trying to claim - it has no basis but religion, and there’s no reason at all to believe in it except religion. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > What is your concept of reality? That which is true regardless of anyone’s opinion or desire. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > Do you know what Membrane Theory is? There could easily be some sort of omniscient, omnipotent being that exists all around us defying “reality” because it exists in multiple dimensions at the same time. Pseudoscientific nonsense. M Theory has nothing at all to do with “God”. > [@YoungKusher](#): > > There are an endless number of scenarios way over your head, and anyone else’s for that matter, where all of these “sadistic” acts are somehow not that important in the grand scheme of things. In other words you are doing exactly what I pointed out as one of the bad effects of believing in a just God; you are rationalizing away the evil of the world as being good, instead. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/88 "2014-01-08T10:10:22Z")
I am a believer and consider myself fairly religious. I am not rolling in the aisles or even tempted to because you see belief in God as denial or a delusion. Many of my friends are religious too and wouldn’t be troubled by this much either. I’m sure there are many religious folk who would be bothered, but really lots of us already know that others don’t believe. It’s hardly a new or startling point of view, though it’s interesting to me that so many non-believers dwell on how wicked or daring they must seem to those who believe and/or belong to an organized religion. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/89 "2014-01-08T13:03:17Z")
> [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Anecdote alert (but it has a point) – I’ve known the wife of a good friend for about 25 years, ever since they started dating. She’s humble and unassuming, warm and outgoing, and an incredibly good wife, mother, and friend. In my books, she’s a model human being who leads a quiet but exemplary life. Well, a couple of years ago, I found out that she believes in God, goes to church regularly, and teaches Sunday school. In the 25 years I’ve known her, she has never once even hinted at God or religion so it came as a bit of a shock, but apparently it makes her feel better about her existence. I suspect that without it, she would be less of the person she is. What would make her less of person than she is if she was an atheist? What brings you to that conclusion? Is it because on some level you think faith makes people fundamentally better? > [@Esox\_Lucius](#): > > Should I respect her any less now that I know she’s a believer? I don’t know… How about the fact that in her small, unassuming way, she’s helping spread a kind of ignorance and superstition that we might be better off without? And if Sunday school means her audience is children, doesn’t that mean she’s doing so to a particularly vulnarable group? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/90 "2014-01-08T13:08:30Z")
> [@YoungKusher](#): > > As far as your “evil world” goes. Here’s a simplified version of the original. I once read a story about a guy who died in a car accident. He met god in the afterlife and immediately he asked God about his wife and Daughter. God said they would be fine and not to worry about them. So then he asked God what happens now? And God told him that he was now going to be reborn as a peasant’s daughter in 1682. The guy freaked and said what about Heaven?? So God explained what is really going on. God told him that he is his child and he is still growing up. In order to finish growing up and become a “God” like him, he must first live the life of every single person that has ever lived and learn from all of their experiences. Only when his “soul” has a thorough understanding of all things good or bad, can he grow up. Great story. I’ve got a book by the Brothers Grimm and it’s full of great stories. What makes your story any different? > [@YoungKusher](#): > > I understand you’re talking specifically about the Christian God, but my point is that you can believe in God and trust that he is a “just” being; your not limited to what religions have made God out to be. There are an endless number of scenarios way over your head, and anyone else’s for that matter, where all of these “sadistic” acts are somehow not that important in the grand scheme of things. Hence, the “Master Plan.” You know who else had a “Master Plan”?.. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/91 "2014-01-08T13:38:01Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > As an atheist I see tragedies as things that may just happen. Someone gets sick, someone is in the wrong place at the wrong time and get killed in an accident, a tidal wave kills tens of thousands. No one can do anything about it. If I miss out on experiencing these things, it is out of luck, not virtue. > > But if you believe in a personal god then all these tragedies can be averted. I know the common excuse is it is god’s will and it is all for the best and we don’t know god’s plan. In other words, the best of all possible worlds scenario, which is obviously wrong. One innocent baby killed and it is disproved. Not to detract from the OP but I disagree that one innocent baby killed disproves anything. If we are eternal souls just inhabiting these bodies temporarily then death here is about as tragic as crashing in a video game. The death of an infant has a profound effect on the people involved and perhaps their experience is what matters. Then again, I’m not sure what you mean by a personal god. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/92 "2014-01-08T14:04:55Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I’m not talking about denial with reality, per se. What I mean is, it’s a coping method plenty of people fall back on, if they have faith, to deal with life issues big and small. > > We’ve all seen cloyingly glurgy sentiments across Facebook, or framed as plaques in peoples homes and so on. > > Everybody has ways to cope, find encouragement or inspiration in times of need, but I see this as something, that if it were any other delusion, would be considered unhealthy to indulge, let alone encourage or enable the individual. Especially to the point of prayer or even waiting passively for divine intervention on issues that should require direct and immediate attention. > > I know what this sounds like to a believer’s ear, as I used to be one. I can hear the entirety of the church rolling around in the pews at the mere mention God is a delusion. And that’s nothing new here, however, I just wanted to bat this thought around for a while here in GD if anyone else would like to weigh in. No doubt in my mind that people use their belief in God to deal with , or avoid dealing with things. I remember a relative who used Jesus in parenting. “Jesus wouldn’t be very pleased with you right now” Back when I was a believer we were having a group discussion and a lady said her child had been having problems in school and she just prayed and laid the problems at Jesus feet and they went away. She hadn’t talked to her son, or gone to school to meet with teachers because that would show a lack of faith. I think prayer can be useful in the way that meditation can be useful. It can be a way of focusing your thoughts on some issue as you are about to take action. Unfortunately it is also used as a substitute for action. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/93 "2014-01-08T14:05:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > There’s a talk on [TED on the subject](http://www.ted.com/talks/stephen_cave_the_4_stories_we_tell_ourselves_about_death.html). > > Nothing jarringly revealing but well presented. enjoyed that. thanks ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/94 "2014-01-08T14:09:09Z")
> [@randompattern](#): > > Replace the word Tree in my earlier post with the word God. Still delusional? Well, if you think God lives in YOUR backyard and no others, then yes. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/95 "2014-01-08T14:32:20Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > We are not purely rational beings. We have biases, differing perspectives, all matter of things. People pray to God and ask for things, in general, because it DOES work from their perspective. It’s confirmation bias. Yes, as a theist myself, I believe that sort of prayer is largely confirmation bias, but it’s also a part of the human condition as a whole, though more often to lesser degrees. I don’t see what’s unhealthy about it in this case, at all. It helps someone cope with a situation they have no control over. When one is helpless, it often helps one cope to feel like one has more control than one does. appreciated your post. I also think it’s futile to think we will ever be purely rational beings without bias. The same flaws that show themselves in one form in religion show themselves in other forms in agnostics and atheists. Since we can’t actually know what’s best for others, I think we need to respect others right to choose their own path and a belief system that works for them. That said, people’s choices affect others and I think the conflict that arises and also serves a purpose. I think we can and should encourage communication and understanding while still establishing and respecting boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/96 "2014-01-08T14:48:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And easily dispelled by showing why the new belief is so much sillier and improbable than the already established belief, right? i’m an agnostic but I also think that type of argument is really a waste of time and serves no real purpose. If the point is supposed to be, “It’s silly to believe in God” it fails. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/97 "2014-01-08T15:06:49Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > i’m an agnostic but I also think that type of argument is really a waste of time and serves no real purpose. If the point is supposed to be, “It’s silly to believe in God” it fails. The point is to get people to ask, “In what way is the concept of “God” not _as_ silly as the IPU, if not sillier?” ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/98 "2014-01-08T17:24:55Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Not to detract from the OP but I disagree that one innocent baby killed disproves anything. If we are eternal souls just inhabiting these bodies temporarily then death here is about as tragic as crashing in a video game. > > The death of an infant has a profound effect on the people involved and perhaps their experience is what matters. > > Then again, I’m not sure what you mean by a personal god. The impact of the death of the baby is on the survivors - and possibly on those the baby could have helped if it had grown older. Whether the baby is just dead or in heaven, the baby is either not affected or cool with dying. So I agree it is the impact. I chose a baby as an innocent. A loved partner also works. By personal god I mean one who is supposedly interested in us. God as the universe, who created the universe and let natural laws run, is unconcerned with this stuff. Now if you think that God is good and did everything for a reason, you might wonder what the reason is for creating such an overactive planet. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/99 "2014-01-08T17:27:12Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > i’m an agnostic but I also think that type of argument is really a waste of time and serves no real purpose. If the point is supposed to be, “It’s silly to believe in God” it fails. As I said above, it was crafted to address the special pleading that theists do. Just before the IPU was created there were a lot of theists objecting to any negatives about or logical arguments against God as just being wrong - because we are talking God and Jesus, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713/100 "2014-01-08T17:39:06Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > i’m an agnostic but I also think that type of argument is really a waste of time and serves no real purpose. If the point is supposed to be, “It’s silly to believe in God” it fails. Are you also an agnostic when it comes to belief in the IPU and, if not, why not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-religion-and-the-afterlife-a-form-of-denial/677713.md?page=6)