# Faith stems from altered states of consciousness **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2004, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838 "2004-06-23T18:09:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/21 "2004-06-24T04:26:34Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > :rolleyes: Glad you’re showing our guest how compassionate and knowledgable we are here. Oh wait, nevermind, you’re just being a jerk. Re: The OP: I think you have to explain your definition of altered state of consciousness. Then we’ll talk. ---
**Author:** ![Psilocybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Psilocybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psilocybe)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/22 "2004-06-24T05:07:19Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I think you have to explain your definition of altered state of consciousness. Then we’ll talk. On the simple side, I’ll say its an unusual “feeling” that one doesn’t typically feel. On the complicated side, I’ll say it can involve having very strange and unusual thoughts, feeling an unusual amount of ecstasy, feeling connected to all the world, ego loss, time loss, or in the case of DMT, leaving your body completely and visiting deceased relatives. [This is your brain on god](http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Farrenkopf.html) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/23 "2004-06-24T06:04:29Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > On the simple side, I’ll say its an unusual “feeling” that one doesn’t typically feel. > > On the complicated side, I’ll say it can involve having very strange and unusual thoughts, feeling an unusual amount of ecstasy, feeling connected to all the world, ego loss, time loss, or in the case of DMT, leaving your body completely and visiting deceased relatives. These are all subjective feelings. I may experience a feeling and think “Wow, this Jolt Cola sure is great!” while you may experience the exact same feeling and think of ego loss, connection to the entire world…etc. I think a lot of people would use these interpretations of their feelings to support their beliefs but few would base their entire belief on them. In your OP you say you have come to a firm conclusion but then you support that conclusion with…nothing. Being confident, and especially being confident with insufficient evidence, is not justified true belief. It’s good that you’re thinking but I think you have awhile before you sort this one out. If you’re really interested in the subject there is TONS of stuff on the internet (and on these very boards) dealing with religion, the study of religion, and the philosophy of religion. Suffice it to say that the historical, popular, and philosophical aspects of religion are a tad bit more complicated than “an unusual feeling.” ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/24 "2004-06-24T06:32:17Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Being confident, and especially being confident with insufficient evidence, is not justified true belief. There is no such thing as truely sufficient evidence. The word ‘sufficient’ is always a subjective qualifier. ---
**Author:** ![Psilocybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Psilocybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psilocybe)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/25 "2004-06-24T06:51:47Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > These are all subjective feelings. I may experience a feeling and think “Wow, this Jolt Cola sure is great!” while you may experience the exact same feeling and think of ego loss, connection to the entire world…etc. > > I think a lot of people would use these interpretations of their feelings to support their beliefs but few would base their entire belief on them. > > In your OP you say you have come to a firm conclusion but then you support that conclusion with…nothing. Being confident, and especially being confident with insufficient evidence, is not justified true belief. It’s good that you’re thinking but I think you have awhile before you sort this one out. If you’re really interested in the subject there is TONS of stuff on the internet (and on these very boards) dealing with religion, the study of religion, and the philosophy of religion. > > Suffice it to say that the historical, popular, and philosophical aspects of religion are a tad bit more complicated than “an unusual feeling.” Thanks, I try, I’m only eighteen. Altered states of consciousness are impossible to describe because they’re feelings. There’s no way to describe colors to a blind man. What I do know is that human beings find [something amazing](http://www.erowid.org) about altered states of consciousness. I know our brains produce the most powerful psychedelic known the man, [DMT](http://www.lightparty.com/Health/SpiritMolecule.html). I also know that the human fascination with altered states of consciousness goes very, very far back. "Further evidence in support of the idea that the relationship between Man and hallucinogens - in this case mushrooms - is indeed an ancient one comes from the ancient populations of the Sahara desert who inhabited this vast area when it was still covered with an extensive layer of vegetation (Samorini, 1989). The archeological findings consist in prehistoric paintings which the author personally had the opportunity to observe during two visits to Tassilli in Algeria. This could be the most ancient ethno-mycological finding up to the present day, which goes back to the so-called Round Heads Period [(i.e. 9,000 - 7,000 years ago)"](http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/mus01.htm) I have a hunch that our relationship is much older than that, even. I still believe in my thesis. I believe what separates a passive religious person from a avid religious person are religion experiences. And that these religious experiences are, in fact, altered states of consciousness - similar to psychedelics. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/26 "2004-06-24T08:26:26Z")
Having [experienced God](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=2826106), I am satisfied that my experience had a [neurophysical explanation](http://www.science-spirit.org/articles/Articledetail.cfm?article_ID=132). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/27 "2004-06-24T11:31:28Z")
Zagadka, In a previous thread I asked for your thoughts on why the God force reveals itself to some seekers and not to others. In this thread I asked you why never having experienced the God force precludes one from ever experiencing it. These seem like fair questions to me. Are you still thinking about them or are you refusing to answer? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/28 "2004-06-24T11:32:51Z")
Oops. I apologize for not bolding \*\*Zadagka. \*\* I’m still learning my way around here. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/29 "2004-06-24T15:22:29Z")
> [@II Gyan II](#): > > The word ‘sufficient’ is always a subjective qualifier. Not true. You need to travel 300 miles to work. You fill your gastank up halfway and run out of gas 160 miles into the trip. You had insufficient fuel to get to work. Psilocybe - Just based on your user name and what you’re saying it looks like you’re trying to explain (or justify) a religion of drugs. In a first year psychology class you should learn exactly what happens in the brain when you take hallucinogens. It’s not god. > [@trandallt](#): > > Oops. I apologize for not bolding Zadagka. I’m still learning my way around here. I think we only ever bolded names because they appeared in bold on the board. Now that they are hyperlinks I don’t think there’s anymore reason to bold them unless you just want to make extra sure that the poster sees his/her own name. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/30 "2004-06-24T15:31:42Z")
> [@trandallt](#): > > Zagadka, > > In a previous thread I asked for your thoughts on why the God force reveals itself to some seekers and not to others. In this thread I asked you why never having experienced the God force precludes one from ever experiencing it. These seem like fair questions to me. Are you still thinking about them or are you refusing to answer? Sorry, I generally participate in a plethora of threads and some get lost in the confusion (and no worries about the bolding, I do it out of habit) When I said, “having never experienced,” I meant never in the use of the future - maybe it would be better phrased “if you never experience.” Does that clear it up? I certainly think that, like a song, if you don’t hear it, you can’t know what it means to you. And even if you do hear it, it may not have the same meaning (though another song might). ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/31 "2004-06-24T15:34:44Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Glad you’re showing our guest how compassionate and knowledgable we are here. Oh wait, nevermind, you’re just being a jerk. Our **guest** made a rude comment, and I rolled my eyes at it. Somehow _I’M_ the jerk? BTW, please stop violating the rules of this board by calling people names. :-p ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/32 "2004-06-24T15:38:44Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > I still believe in my thesis. I believe what separates a passive religious person from a avid religious person are religion experiences. And that these religious experiences are, in fact, altered states of consciousness - similar to psychedelics. Yes, I think that is an accurate assessment of the effect that god has on us. In a thread a while ago, someone brought up MRI scans of the brain. I asked if a theists would be different than an atheists, and they said yes, but refused to elaborate any further on why or how it would be different. The chemistry is indeed altered. The question is, what by, how, etc. Certainly there are some methods of self-altering, which are common in religious ritual (chanting, dancing, singing, or the very sense-overwhelming environment) around the world, from shamanism to Catholicism. This, however, merely opens up your mind for further involvement. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/33 "2004-06-24T16:15:28Z")
(Apologies if I simply say what others have already said. I have read all the posts. But having overslept, I’ve just woken up and I am not a morning person). If I’m having a spiritual experience, of course I’m experiencing an altered neurological state. Being a manic depressive with obssessive compulsive disorder, social anxiety, attention deficit disorder, and panic attacks I’ve experienced all kinds of strange states of consciousness. Currently, due to releases of endorphins and other fun things, I’m experiencing joy, contentment, and the conviction that I am loved. But, the stimulus that caused all those changes was UPS delivering a package from Mom and my relatives in Florida (The package is so wonderful I’ll probably start a MPSIMS thread to rave about it and my family). Assuming for the sake of argument God, the magical sky pixie, the Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc does exist, wouldn’t experience of such a being cause altered states of consciousness? IMO, logical extension of your argument gets to the classic ghost in the box argument- is the human mind a purely mechanical phenomenon or is it something more? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/34 "2004-06-24T16:23:09Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Our **guest** made a rude comment, and I rolled my eyes at it. Somehow _I’M_ the jerk? Show me where he was being rude. He may have approached it hamhandedly but I think he’s genuinely interested in the subject. He’s new and it takes a LONG time to grasp how uptight people here are. I’ve been here for 4 years and I still have trouble with it sometimes, cut him some slack. > [@Zagadka](#): > > BTW, please stop violating the rules of this board by calling people names. :-p Yea. Now it’s my turn… :rolleyes: “:-p” ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/35 "2004-06-24T19:19:58Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Not true. You need to travel 300 miles to work. You fill your gastank up halfway and run out of gas 160 miles into the trip. You had insufficient fuel to get to work. Pretty disingenious of you. First, I was referring to ‘sufficient’ within your phrase ‘sufficient evidence’, and not as a general word. Second, _someone_ has to apply the evidence and weigh it. That someone has their own set of rules on what constitutes favourable and/or necessary evidence. That person may agree with you on whether he/she uses the same rules of logic and evaluation, but it’s still a **subject** ive choice. ---
**Author:** ![Psilocybe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Psilocybe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psilocybe)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/36 "2004-06-24T19:24:01Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Psilocybe - Just based on your user name and what you’re saying it looks like you’re trying to explain (or justify) a religion of drugs. In a first year psychology class you should learn exactly what happens in the brain when you take hallucinogens. It’s not god. Thats the last time I reveal my age, thanks. I never once said that I believe psychedelics make me feel “god”, and yes I know how they effect the brain. But, it is something that is utterly amazing. I’m exploring the fact, in an anti-altered-states-of-consciousness age, that states of consciousness have played a profound role in the history of humanity. It sure plays a part in Buddhism, and I believe it plays a part in other religions as well. But, for some reason, its something that is never mentioned at church. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/37 "2004-06-24T19:30:37Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Show me where he was being rude. He may have approached it hamhandedly but I think he’s genuinely interested in the subject. He’s new and it takes a LONG time to grasp how uptight people here are. I’ve been here for 4 years and I still have trouble with it sometimes, cut him some slack. Sheesh, I rolled my eyes. With all the fuss you’re making over it, you’d think I called someone a jerk in GD. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/38 "2004-06-24T19:36:25Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Show me where he was being rude. He may have approached it hamhandedly but I think he’s genuinely interested in the subject. He’s new and it takes a LONG time to grasp how uptight people here are. I’ve been here for 4 years and I still have trouble with it sometimes, cut him some slack. Sheesh, I rolled my eyes. With all the fuss you’re making over it, you’d think I called someone a jerk in GD. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/39 "2004-06-24T19:37:48Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > It sure plays a part in Buddhism, and I believe it plays a part in other religions as well. But, for some reason, its something that is never mentioned at church. People drink wine at art galleries, too. You should write an expose on art being based on drunk ramblings. O\_o ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2004, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838/40 "2004-06-24T20:02:53Z")
> [@Psilocybe](#): > > I’m exploring the fact, in an anti-altered-states-of-consciousness age, that states of consciousness have played a profound role in the history of humanity. The problem is that you still haven’t defined altered states of consciousness. You’re basically saying that sometimes some people feel a little weird and it has a great affect on religion/humanity. > [@Psilocybe](#): > > Thats the last time I reveal my age, thanks. Nothing I’ve said is in any way reflective of me knowing your age. If you’re 14 and present a sound argument, great! If you were 70 and put forth the argument you’ve presented here I would react the same way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith-stems-from-altered-states-of-consciousness/251838.md?page=3)