# Faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996 "2013-05-22T07:30:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/21 "2013-05-22T13:12:27Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > I can try to explain how it works for me. I was born into a devout Roman Catholic family, went to Catholic schools, and became an atheist by high school. I can’t remember if it was 9th grade or later. 🙂 I was a happy atheist for many years. > > In the aftermath of some personal trauma, I met a man who asked me if I would listen to his story. He told me about a period in his life when things were going wrong, and how becoming a serious Christian had changed everything for him. While I listened to this guy’s story, which really had little to do with what I was going through at the time, I became convinced that he was telling me the truth. This conviction just happened, not through logic or some amazing persuasive power the guy had, but through what I would call a spiritual experience. I was listening to a story that I would have previously dismissed as pathetic bullshit and was filled with the feeling that it was totally true. > > I began to pray and to find comfort in that. I also began to read the bible and to find revelation in it. The evidence that supports my faith is internal. I don’t expect it to convince a skeptic, although I know from personal experience that it can happen. I have evidence for my faith, but it’s not evidence that is of much use to anyone else. Well, thanks for the explanation. You say you find revelation in the bible, but how do you reconcile that with the objective cruelty presented within it? I should How can you rationalize all of the inconsistencies that go along with believing in god or the bible? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/22 "2013-05-22T13:18:58Z")
I should also add, that like Dawkins, I’m a strong atheist but not an absolute one. I can admit that I could be wrong about it all and that Jesus could in fact be the messiah. But I could say the same thing about the existence of Santa Claus or Bigfoot. The point is there is no evidence for any of them, and yet Santa Claus and Bigfoot don’t have billions of followers. That’s where my question is coming from. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/23 "2013-05-22T13:30:10Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > The point is there is no evidence for any of them, and yet Santa Claus and Bigfoot don’t have billions of followers. I think you’d be surprised at how many Bigfoot believers there are. Santa Claus, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/24 "2013-05-22T13:59:53Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Well, thanks for the explanation. You say you find revelation in the bible, but how do you reconcile that with the objective cruelty presented within it? I should How can you rationalize all of the inconsistencies that go along with believing in god or the bible? My view of the bible is different from the fundamentalist view that leads to things like young-earth creationism and attempts to reconcile the contradictory (or at least very different) Jesus birth narratives. To quote theologian Roger Olson, I believe that the bible is “a complex narrative written and compiled by human authors led by but not over-ridden by” God. My personal belief about the bible is that it is what Olson said it is, with the additional description that it was put together from the writings of various communities who were experiencing life and having spiritual experiences and trying to make sense of it all. My faith is, as I stated above, the result of spiritual experiences. My use of the bible is something that I think of as sacramental: the bible is a tool that I use in experiencing God. It’s not a history book or even a theology book, for me. My use of it is very personal. I don’t bludgeon people with it or even quote it much. I don’t engage in much discussion of this on SDMB. I hope that my original post was a useful answer to your question. As for your question about why Jesus has more followers than Bigfoot, I think it is possible that, whatever actually happened 2,000 years ago, a bunch of people had a profound spiritual reaction to the life and death of Jesus. It seems entirely possible to me that the personal testimony of these people was enough, like the guy I mentioned in my first reply, to convey their experiences as truth to those they spoke to. Maybe it survived and spread because it is true, if only in some spiritual sense. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/25 "2013-05-22T14:01:32Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > What is going on with this faith in god that people have? > > It just seems so easy to point out the fallacies in faith, and yet they seem to go completely ignored by those who have it. It did not take long for me to realize that Christianity was a big hoax. I think it occurred to me in 9th grade after an examination of Noah’s ark and how it could not ever be feasibly possible. After that, I analyzed every other story in the bible, along with all of the despicable acts committed within it, and it’s a no brainer. > > Even if you leave the bible out of it, and just believe in “god”, you have to see that there is absolutely no evidence for it at all. Furthermore, the concept is logically inconsistent. I could go into numerous examples, but I’m sure most Atheists here have already heard them. As it happens I also realized that Christianity was big hoax sometime around 9th grade. Then, during my second and third years of graduate school, I began reading and learning about Christianity more seriously and I realized it wasn’t a big hoax after all. St. Thomas Aquinas said, “The most slender knowledge that can be obtained of the higher things is worth more than the surest knowledge of the lower things.” If we are willing to trust sense data and our own memories, we can have absolute certainty about some things: the shirt I’m currently wearing is green, my calculus textbook has 673 pages, &c.. Other, more important things are not subject to the same sort of certainty. For instance, I can never know whether my wife loves me, but can only look at pointers which suggest one answer or another. Only faith in her love allows me to function properly in a relationship with her. Likewise in assessing whether Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be I have numerous pointers, but faith is what makes me functional in relationship to Him. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/26 "2013-05-22T14:01:50Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Well, thanks for the explanation. You say you find revelation in the bible, but how do you reconcile that with the objective cruelty presented within it? I should How can you rationalize all of the inconsistencies that go along with believing in god or the bible? Humans are flawed creatures. Our capacity to rationalize all kinds of irrational behaviour does not begin or end with religion/bible/god. Singling out faith (though you’re not wrong in your observations) is simply going after the low hanging fruit. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/27 "2013-05-22T14:02:32Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I should also add, that like Dawkins, I’m a strong atheist but not an absolute one. I can admit that I could be wrong about it all and that Jesus could in fact be the messiah. But I could say the same thing about the existence of Santa Claus or Bigfoot. The point is there is no evidence for any of them, and yet Santa Claus and Bigfoot don’t have billions of followers. That’s where my question is coming from. This is evidence that you have missed something. Billions of people could be wrong or you could have missed something. Which one is more likely? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/28 "2013-05-22T14:09:00Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is evidence that you have missed something. Billions of people could be wrong or you could have missed something. Which one is more likely? Based on the mountains of beliefs without evidence that masses of people have been wrong about before, there’s no reason to assume that this particular belief with no evidence is any more likely to be correct. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/29 "2013-05-22T14:23:00Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Based on the mountains of beliefs without evidence that masses of people have been wrong about before, there’s no reason to assume that this particular belief with no evidence is any more likely to be correct. Given that, shouldn’t that we have epistemological humility instead of declaring anyone who disagrees with us is an irrational nut? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/30 "2013-05-22T14:32:35Z")
Talking about evidence justifying faith is completely missing the point. If there were evidence it wouldn’t be faith. This is where some of the more “certain” believers are selling themselves short - it is precisely the absence of evidence, and the doubt and uncertainty produced by it, that gives faith its power to provide meaning and purpose to life. And I say that as someone with no faith in God at all. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/31 "2013-05-22T14:33:27Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is evidence that you have missed something. Billions of people could be wrong or you could have missed something. Which one is more likely? Since more people are not Christians than are, doesn’t that mean, by your logic, that Christianity is more likely to be false than true? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/32 "2013-05-22T14:35:05Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > As for your question about why Jesus has more followers than Bigfoot, I think it is possible that, whatever actually happened 2,000 years ago, a bunch of people had a profound spiritual reaction to the life and death of Jesus. It’s possible. It’s also possible that it was invented. > [@](#): > > It seems entirely possible to me that the personal testimony of these people was enough, like the guy I mentioned in my first reply, to convey their experiences as truth to those they spoke to. Maybe it survived and spread because it is true, if only in some spiritual sense. But we don’t have any “personal testimony” of any people. Maybe it survived and spread because it fulfilled an all-too-human need for hope, bolstered by wishful thinking and the belief in magic. Maybe the story is 10%, 50%, or 100% fiction. We don’t know, and the fact that people believe it to this day is worthless for evidence. That’s what faith is, belief without the burden of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/33 "2013-05-22T14:43:09Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > What is going on with this faith in god that people have? > > It just seems so easy to point out the fallacies in faith, and yet they seem to go completely ignored by those who have it. It did not take long for me to realize that Christianity was a big hoax. I think it occurred to me in 9th grade after an examination of Noah’s ark and how it could not ever be feasibly possible. After that, I analyzed every other story in the bible, along with all of the despicable acts committed within it, and it’s a no brainer. > > Even if you leave the bible out of it, and just believe in “god”, you have to see that there is absolutely no evidence for it at all. Furthermore, the concept is logically inconsistent. I could go into numerous examples, but I’m sure most Atheists here have already heard them. > > It just seems that people suspend their intelligence when this subject comes up. I have to think it has something to do with fear of death and the unknown. That still doesn’t explain their unwillingness to actually think about it. > > I’ve had these conversations with friends who are devout christians. I’ve cornered them to the point where they agree that all they have is faith. Yet, it does not seem to shake their belief in any way. I just don’t understand. If someone could explain this ridiculous concept to me, I would appreciate it. Don’t get down on faith because you can’t live without it. Faith is everywhere and everyone has faith in many ways and many things every day. There are no guarantees in life of any kind, so we have faith. Do you have faith in yourself. You should begin with faith in yourself. Faith, trust, confidence, and other words described how we live with others peacefully. OK your main objection to faith is when it involves God or a Creator of this universe. Many grow up in some religion in this country and are taught to have faith. Religion has its place to this world. There are things you can learn from your Christian friends The Bible does contain some pretty bad stuff and it also contains some very beautiful stuff. Learn to sort out what is believable and don’t judge others for believing what you can’t. It is a truism that all things are possible in this world. If one should be skeptical of all things having no faith then that person would be frightened of everything they came into contact with. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/34 "2013-05-22T14:44:58Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Given that, shouldn’t that we have epistemological humility instead of declaring anyone who disagrees with us is an irrational nut? If by such humility you mean relying on objective evidence instead of using belief as evidence of itself, absolutely. If you mean that nothing can be known, thus all beliefs are equally valid, then no, we shouldn’t have such humility. And some people _are_ irrational nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/35 "2013-05-22T14:46:49Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Given that, shouldn’t that we have epistemological humility instead of declaring anyone who disagrees with us is an irrational nut? Didn’t you yourself just claim that it was more likely for **Human Action** to be an irrational nut for not agreeing with a belief held many millions of people [QUOTE=puddleglum] This is evidence that you have missed something. Billions of people could be wrong or you could have missed something. Which one is more likely? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/36 "2013-05-22T14:57:47Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If by such humility you mean relying on objective evidence instead of using belief as evidence of itself, absolutely. > > If you mean that nothing can be known, thus all beliefs are equally valid, then no, we shouldn’t have such humility. > > And some people _are_ irrational nuts. What I mean is that people believed the Sun revolved around the earth because the objective evidence told them it was true. Later evidence contradicted the earlier evidence and we now find it hard to believe that anyone ever believed the Sun revolved around the earth. Given that it is impossible to know whether our current knowledge is complete and final, we should try to be humble about the level of our knowledge and allow for the possiblity that we are wrong, and that there are mysteries of the universe we have not completely figured out. We are like the proverbial blind men describing an elephant, trying to use our finite minds and senses to describe and understand the infinite. As Martin Luther King said, faith is taking the first step when you don’t see the whole staircase. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/37 "2013-05-22T14:59:13Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Didn’t you yourself just claim that it was more likely for **Human Action** to be an irrational nut for not agreeing with a belief held many millions of people There is a difference between being wrong and being an irrational nut. He is probably a relatively intelligent person, but he is not all knowing and likely to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/38 "2013-05-22T14:59:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Given that, shouldn’t that we have epistemological humility instead of declaring anyone who disagrees with us is an irrational nut? I would be tempted to agree with your more tollerant stance if not for the fact that evidence for the existance of god is lacking and has been for a very long time now. Given the demonstrable lack of humility with which the faithful treat those of competing religions (or those with a lack of beliefs), in what way does deference to ignorance benefit humanity as a whole? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/39 "2013-05-22T15:00:23Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > I’ve had these conversations with friends who are devout christians. I’ve cornered them to the point where they agree that all they have is faith. Yet, it does not seem to shake their belief in any way. I just don’t understand. If someone could explain this ridiculous concept to me, I would appreciate it. The debatable question is not why faith exists – which is not at all hard to answer, to anyone with any basic familiarity with human psychology – but whether faith has any **value.** ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/40 "2013-05-22T15:03:25Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > What I mean is that people believed the Sun revolved around the earth because the objective evidence told them it was true. Later evidence contradicted the earlier evidence and we now find it hard to believe that anyone ever believed the Sun revolved around the earth. > Given that it is impossible to know whether our current knowledge is complete and final, we should try to be humble about the level of our knowledge and allow for the possiblity that we are wrong, and that there are mysteries of the universe we have not completely figured out. > We are like the proverbial blind men describing an elephant, trying to use our finite minds and senses to describe and understand the infinite. > As Martin Luther King said, faith is taking the first step when you don’t see the whole staircase. That approach rules out religious belief, you understand. It’s also fairly useless for actually living your life. If everything we know will likely be contradicted by things we will learn in the future, meaning that all we know and believe now is wrong, then all present beliefs are equally wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996.md?page=3)