# Faith **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996 "2013-05-22T07:30:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/121 "2013-05-24T03:17:57Z")
> [@huck](#): > > If my religion leads me to believe that I must love my neighbor and act accordingly, why should I waiver? And if your religion tells you the opposite, why should you waiver? Whether you love _or_ hate should not be left up to an unquestionable source-it should be your decision alone. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/122 "2013-05-24T03:27:46Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > (Listening to the radio today, I caught an interview from a couple who just survived the tornado in OK. They will be rebuilding, by golly. Because God is obviously watching over them and this is what he wants them to do.) Fancy that. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/123 "2013-05-24T04:10:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And if your religion tells you the opposite, why should you waiver? Whether you love _or_ hate should not be left up to an unquestionable source-it should be your decision alone. But it is my decision. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/124 "2013-05-24T04:12:04Z")
> [@huck](#): > > But it is my decision. Then you’re not a true believer. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/125 "2013-05-24T11:13:26Z")
> [@huck](#): > > But it is my decision. So you don’t believe we should love our neighbors because this is what Jesus told us to do? Have you never silenced doubts about something with, “This is what Jesus says is right.” If you have never been challenged in this way, I’m wondering how you know you’re even guided by faith. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/126 "2013-05-24T13:52:20Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > Then you’re not a true believer. And you really don’t see anything circular in this reasoning? If I follow the law against murder and refrain from killing anyone other than in self-defense, am I not a true believer in the idea that it is wrong to kill people? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/127 "2013-05-24T15:01:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Because you can be wrong. Even when it comes to something as “good” as neighborly love. > > Christ directs his followers to turn the other cheek, love thy enemy, and be a fount of forgiveness. This is great when your enemy’s only crime is stealing your graham cracker during snack time. > > But what if your enemy is a hording army with raping and pillaging on its agenda? Do you trust your faith to inform you what you should do in this case too? Do you pray and ready your cheeks for turning? Or do you build up your arsenal, and save Sunday School lessons for another day? > > I accept that my ideas about the world can be 100% wrong. I’m working with the best information that I have, but I realize that my interpretations could be faulty. I also know that I have it in me to correct my course if events indicate it would be wise to do so. Because I do not have my eternal soul tied up in any one idea, and there is nothing wrong with respecting and changing one’s mind. > > A person guided by faith is not flexible in this way. > > They will often keep doing the same shit over and over again out of the belief they are doing what God wants them to do. Rather than what makes sense. > > (Listening to the radio today, I caught an interview from a couple who just survived the tornado in OK. They will be rebuilding, by golly. Because God is obviously watching over them and this is what he wants them to do.) Now we see though a glass darkly, but the darkness will be removed and the light will show us the truth. We make assumptions about this world based on what we know. But alas we know so little. Jesus taught us to love one another. He walked His talk by not allowing His followers to harm those who hated and murdered Him. He said “forgive them for they know not what they do.” He was a living example of love in action. Many make fun of Him and what He stood for instead of learning from Him. Forgive them for they know not what they do. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/128 "2013-05-24T15:40:54Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Excellent analogy. Let me extend it. For many years we debated the meaning of the painting. Then one day someone finds a video showing that the painting was actually created by a gorilla who dipped his feet and hands in paint and walked over it. We as humans tend to find patterns and cause in everything - but at this point it might be time to stop. Fair, but within the analogy, I don’t think it’s possible to actually see such a video. And, really, within the context of the painting, does it even really matter if that is the case? I agree that it probably is time to stop. I do think that these are interesting questions, but when we spend all our time arguing about whether God exists or not, what he may or may not of wanted us to do, in the end all we have is the patterns implicit in the painting. So, really, a religious person can say that God gave us a nature desire to do good, and a non-religious person might say that it evolved because it helps create social order that furthers the species, we spend this time arguing about where this desire comes from when we really could just be agreeing that, theist and atheist alike, we want to do good and make life better for everyone. > [@](#): > > There are many ways of doing this which don’t involve any sort of mythology, including the study of ethics and various branches of philosophy, few of which pretend to be able to dictate an answer. And science does answer some moral questions, like that of natural evil. It is terrible that people die or are injured in natural disasters, but isn’t it comforting to know the reason is not malice from an all powerful being or as a result of some sin on their part? Yes and no. We can study ethics to a certain extent within science, but it doesn’t really help us decide what is best, it only helps us draw from a premise to a conclusion. That is, scientifically speaking, there is nothing inherently good or bad about life, it simply is. Yet, overwhelmingly people have the value that preservation of life is a good thing. Thus, if we can show that doing one thing will preserve more life than another thing then, we could argue that the former is better than the latter given that value. To me, the question is, how do we ultimately decide on these base values? Are there perhaps even more basic values than those? Can we agree on what they are and then extrapolate them into our lives? Really, all mythology is are parables, they’re fables, they’re part of the collective human consciousness as a way of helping us to learn and remember a lot of these lessons. Sure, it’d be great if we could just say “Do X, don’t do Y…” but we also want to understand why, and that’s the context that these stories give us. And yes, it is comforting to know that disasters aren’t the result of some divine punishment. But to me, it’s even more comforting to know that, like with mythology, parables, and history, we can also take these events as opportunities to learn and grow. > [@panaccione](#): > > A lot of people have claimed that the bible was guided or inspired by god. Yet, it is full of evil and contradiction and as everyone knows there is no evidence for it whatsoever. It seems like a meaningless statement or a mere copout to me. Anyone care to elaborate on that? Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Were the founding fathers good people? Most would say so, afterall, the entire American government and many of the most prevalent American values originated with them, yet most if not all of them were racist and sexist among countless other personal flaws. Many of them, though they had and expressed those ideals, ultimately fell short of them. Virtually every great person in history is remembered well for their contributions, but often we tend to downplay or even outright try to purge their faults. The Bible is much the same way, in my view. We are looking at a flawed perspective from a flawed people from a time and culture that we have difficulty even relating to. In exactly the same way that I’m not going to ignore the words of Thomas Jefferson because he had slaves and I find that abhorent, there’s plenty to be learned from the Bible, even if a lot of that isn’t so much on a personal level, but rather already largely absorbed into society as a whole. And, really, you keep harping on “there’s no proof for it”. You’re not going to find many fundamentalist Christians on this board arguing for the literal interpretation of Genesis and a number of other clear myths from the Bible. A story doesn’t have to be literally true to have moral truths to it. On a personal level, I very much see most of the Old Testament as a way of giving us context for Jesus. We get contexts for their beliefs, we get context for their history, which is a combination of myth and actual history. In fact, I think the flaws of the Jewish people are precisely a big part of the point in how we can apply the teachings to our lives today. In fact, compare it in many ways to American history. We were founded on equality and all, yet we sucked at it. Hell, we had to have a war just to end slavery, and it still took another century before blacks were really started to be seen and treated as equals. Women were treated like crap for a long time. Even today, we struggle with equality. Does that mean that the virtue of equality is less meaningful because we’ve historically sucked at applying it? Not at all. It is that tale of seeing how much people truly believe it and fight for it, and the contrast between where we’ve been and where we are that helps us realize just how important a virtue it is. So, let us look at the teachings of Jesus, teaching us about love, brotherhood, charity, selflessness, humility, sincerity, not to be hypocrites, and other things that, though we see them more or less as givens today, a lot of that is precisely because we live in a society that has been influenced by his teachings for centuries. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/129 "2013-05-24T15:53:55Z")
> [@huck](#): > > Look, I do understand that fundamentalism is on the rise in the US and other places, and among Christians and other religions, but you are generalizing to the point of absurdity. > > I can assure you that you are quite wrong about me and the great majority of my Episcopalian sisters and brothers. Allowing for individual variances in ability, intelligence and personality, we are open, evolving, able to learn and certainly no more inclined to kill than anyone else. We don’t bash gays (we welcome them and often ordain them), we aren’t terrorists, we don’t demand that anyone else conform to our religious beliefs. > > There are quite a lot of Christians like this. Instead of dismissing us as not really religious, you ought to consider whether it’s really religion you’re troubled by, or people who use Christianity to justify unjust, unkind and un-religious behavior. > > And really the view of human nature that assumes religion turns people into intolerant and/or murderous robots–contrary to their natural inclinations–seems far more pessimistic to me than the idea that humans will justify greed, power grabs, and bigotry with whatever is convenient (including religion, nationalism, and racism). People in this country in this century can and do choose their religion or no religion; unfortunately quite a number of them choose one that allows them to be intolerant and unjust. > > I’d be interested to know whether there’s research or evidence to support the idea that not being religious makes one more open, able to evolve and learn, or less likely to be violent. I agree. I see religion as just part of someone’s personal journey. What church they are attracted to, stay in, and how thier beliefs affect thier interaction with others depends on them. There are many wonderful folks who are believers and some wonderful folks who are not. Just as there are jerk atheists and agnostics and great ones. Belief or non belief says zero about your character as a person or yopur contribution to society. The belief that we’d be better off without religion is IMO just a baseless opinion founded more in personal bias than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/130 "2013-05-24T15:59:22Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The belief that we’d be better off without religion is IMO just a baseless opinion founded more in personal bias than anything else. I’ve been to many churches over the years, and I don’t recall any that put forth the notion that we would not be better off without atheism. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/131 "2013-05-24T16:08:59Z")
IMO, we can accept that everyone operates on some kind of belief system that is partially based on personal experience and observations, and some degree of faith. We operate on intellect and whatever our personal knowledge is, but also emotion and personal preference. I don’t think we need to qualify religous faith as some entirely separate form of faith that is either good or bad. It’s the same human condition that makes anyone accept things on trust. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/132 "2013-05-24T16:10:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve been to many churches over the years, and I don’t recall any that put forth the notion that we would not be better off without atheism. Your point? Is it that one baseless opinion deserves another? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/133 "2013-05-24T16:37:17Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Your point? > > Is it that one baseless opinion deserves another? No-it’s that the “baseless opinion” of the minority seems to upset you and others more than the “baseless opinion” of the majority. We still live in a world where public officials can openly denigrate atheists without serious consequence, but the very few atheist public officials that have outed themselves are expected to keep a civil tongue lest people get upset. It’s as if someone dared to bring a shiv to a shotgun fight, and everyone’s upset with the guy holding the shiv. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/134 "2013-05-24T16:43:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > (Listening to the radio today, I caught an interview from a couple who just survived the tornado in OK. They will be rebuilding, by golly. Because God is obviously watching over them and this is what he wants them to do.) I’m sure you’ve probably already seen this one, but I just loved this woman who corrected Wolf Blitzer on CNN when he asserted that she has to thank the lord for being spared: > **[Wolf Blitzer's Embarrassing Moment With Tornado Survivor](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wolf-blitzer-atheist-tornado-survivor_n_3316312)** > > Wolf Blitzer's Embarrassing Moment With Tornado Survivor I’m not sure I would have had the guts, although I’d like to think so. (If I did say anything, I’m sure I wouldn’t have been as graceful and thoughtful as she was. I probably would have looked around at the devastation all around me and said something nasty and pointed having to do with the problem of evil and not being at all grateful if some entity intentionally visited death and destruction on the people around me.) ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/135 "2013-05-24T17:13:09Z")
> [@huck](#): > > And you really don’t see anything circular in this reasoning? > > If I follow the law against murder and refrain from killing anyone other than in self-defense, am I not a true believer in the idea that it is wrong to kill people? My point is that if your a true believer, you don’t get to make your own decisions. You must follow the bibles teachings. Your bible commands you to do some pretty heinous acts, and Jesus even says he has not come to do away with them, and yet you refrain to follow through. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/136 "2013-05-24T17:21:15Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > My point is that if your a true believer, you don’t get to make your own decisions. You must follow the bibles teachings. Your bible commands you to do some pretty heinous acts, and Jesus even says he has not come to do away with them, and yet you refrain to follow through. I’m curious. As a devout atheist, do you practice any little rituals for luck. You know, like knock on wood, or avoid walking under ladders, wish on candles before blowing them out? If so, does that put your non belief status into question? ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/137 "2013-05-24T17:22:04Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Were the founding fathers good people? Most would say so, afterall, the entire American government and many of the most prevalent American values originated with them, yet most if not all of them were racist and sexist among countless other personal flaws. Many of them, though they had and expressed those ideals, ultimately fell short of them. Virtually every great person in history is remembered well for their contributions, but often we tend to downplay or even outright try to purge their faults. > > The Bible is much the same way, in my view. We are looking at a flawed perspective from a flawed people from a time and culture that we have difficulty even relating to. In exactly the same way that I’m not going to ignore the words of Thomas Jefferson because he had slaves and I find that abhorent, there’s plenty to be learned from the Bible, even if a lot of that isn’t so much on a personal level, but rather already largely absorbed into society as a whole. > > And, really, you keep harping on “there’s no proof for it”. You’re not going to find many fundamentalist Christians on this board arguing for the literal interpretation of Genesis and a number of other clear myths from the Bible. A story doesn’t have to be literally true to have moral truths to it. > > On a personal level, I very much see most of the Old Testament as a way of giving us context for Jesus. We get contexts for their beliefs, we get context for their history, which is a combination of myth and actual history. In fact, I think the flaws of the Jewish people are precisely a big part of the point in how we can apply the teachings to our lives today. > > In fact, compare it in many ways to American history. We were founded on equality and all, yet we sucked at it. Hell, we had to have a war just to end slavery, and it still took another century before blacks were really started to be seen and treated as equals. Women were treated like crap for a long time. Even today, we struggle with equality. Does that mean that the virtue of equality is less meaningful because we’ve historically sucked at applying it? Not at all. It is that tale of seeing how much people truly believe it and fight for it, and the contrast between where we’ve been and where we are that helps us realize just how important a virtue it is. > > So, let us look at the teachings of Jesus, teaching us about love, brotherhood, charity, selflessness, humility, sincerity, not to be hypocrites, and other things that, though we see them more or less as givens today, a lot of that is precisely because we live in a society that has been influenced by his teachings for centuries. That’s a whole lot of rationalization for a book that promotes murder, slavery, rape, infanticide, and many other such acts. This is what we get from a book divinely inspired by god? I’m sorry but there is no context where any of this is okay. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/138 "2013-05-24T17:24:58Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m curious. As a devout atheist, do you practice any little rituals for luck. You know, like knock on wood, or avoid walking under ladders, wish on candles before blowing them out? > > If so, does that put your non belief status into question? Are you saying that common superstitions are indicators of a belief in a deity? Do you mean to reduce religious beliefs to the status of old wives tales? Also, what is a “devout” atheist? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/139 "2013-05-24T17:27:36Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Also, what is a “devout” atheist? I think it’s like being a devout non-skydiver. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996/140 "2013-05-24T17:34:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’m curious. As a devout atheist, do you practice any little rituals for luck. You know, like knock on wood, or avoid walking under ladders, wish on candles before blowing them out? > > If so, does that put your non belief status into question? Yeah, sometimes I make a wish at 11:11. I don’t think it does because I don’t take it very seriously. But, like I’ve said, I admit that I could be wrong. I don’t see many believers admitting that, or they wouldn’t be believers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/faith/658996.md?page=8)