# Fake Marine in full uniform at his High School reunion is found out by classmate & arrested With pic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2009, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292 "2009-11-12T06:52:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kidneyfailure](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9f8e36/32.png) [@kidneyfailure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidneyfailure)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/81 "2009-11-13T10:09:44Z")
> [@robby](#): > > The criminal element arises when they actually don the uniform of a servicemember and impersonate a member of the Armed Forces…You still have not answered if you believe that the criminalization of impersonating a police officer is constitutionally prohibited. If not, how is this different than the criminalization of impersonating a military officer, from a constitutional point of view? I can’t speak of the Constitutional POV, but there clearly is a difference in this situation. The guy was pretending be a decorated Marine at a high school reunion, he was NOT out there trying to throw his authority around and use it to his advantage or to affect any kind of tangible change. He was basically masquerading as a soldier to get points from his friends. I had a friend who dressed up like a police officer, in full uniform and insignia that he borrowed from another friend (a real officer), for Halloween once. Is that illegal? No. Would it be illegal if he had gone out on the street and tried to intimidate and influence people? Yes. Therein lies the difference! Dressing up like a Marine or cop at a party to impress people should not be illegal (although it is stupid), dressing up like a Marine or cop to pull rank and intimidate or incarcerate people should be illegal. This isn’t that hard to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/82 "2009-11-13T10:19:54Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > So, if this happened in the US, would what my friend did be considered a criminal act? (Although, I’m thinking that, since it wasn’t even on a military uniform, but on his ordinary jacket, the most he’d get was a talking to from the police officer about what the law is). Those of us that have medals from deceased serving relatives, are we doomed never to wear them in public and keep them in a container? Technically, it probably would be a violation of that law. But we have a safety valve or common sense exception in the form of County Attorney prosecutors. If a person was wearing their relatives medals on Veterans Day or V-E Day, etc., no prosecutor in their right mind would ever actually file charges in such a case. If they did, the members of the local American Legion or VFW post would promptly change his mind. (Probably by beating him silly with their canes, to judge from the average age of those groups around here.) ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/83 "2009-11-13T13:22:00Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > The guy was pretending be a decorated Marine at a high school reunion, he was NOT out there trying to throw his authority around and use it to his advantage or to affect any kind of tangible change. Actually I think the fact that he was clearly “pretending to be a decorated Marine” is the big strike against him. That’s undoubtedly the key difference between “dressing up” and “impersonating.” ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/84 "2009-11-13T13:31:37Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > When i said that i had respect for the courage of military officers who won medals, you essentially called me a liar. And now you whine about insults. You’re a hypocrite. I called you no such thing. However, your own statements throughout this thread belie your supposed respect for those who have demonstrated valor and/or have been injured or killed in service to our country. A medal and a citation is a poor reward for such sacrifice, and allowing impostors to walk around wearing unearned medals debases and cheapens the awards in question. And for your information, its not just the officers who get medals. Yes, there may be only a few impostors around now. However, how many would there be if there were no punishment for doing so? How many of these impostors would it take before the awards in question become worthless because, more often than not, it wasn’t actually earned? ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/85 "2009-11-13T13:38:48Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Yes, and…? > > I think you forgot your rebuttal, here. Why _aren’t_ the strict checks on his employment within the US enough to convince you that his abusable power is more limited than a police officer’s? Because when a national crisis arises that requires such deployment, that is a supremely bad time to only then begin enforcing the prohibition against impersonating a member of the military. ---
**Author:** ![Amulet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4491bb/32.png) [@Amulet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amulet)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/86 "2009-11-13T13:42:16Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > The guy was pretending be a decorated Marine at a high school reunion, he was NOT out there trying to throw his authority around and use it to his advantage or to affect any kind of tangible change. He was basically masquerading as a soldier to get points from his friends. But it wasn’t just at a high school reunion. It was a deliberate, ongoing impersonation as evidenced by his blog. Every time he dressed up to go get his picture taken he was carrying on the fraud. Had he encountered real, lower-ranking Marines while he was in uniform they would be expected to follow any orders he gave. I think 90 days in Leavenworth would be an appropriate punishment. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/87 "2009-11-13T13:48:06Z")
> [@kidneyfailure](#): > > I can’t speak of the Constitutional POV, but there clearly is a difference in this situation. The guy was pretending be a decorated Marine at a high school reunion, he was NOT out there trying to throw his authority around and use it to his advantage or to affect any kind of tangible change. He was basically masquerading as a soldier to get points from his friends. I had a friend who dressed up like a police officer, in full uniform and insignia that he borrowed from another friend (a real officer), for Halloween once. Is that illegal? No. Would it be illegal if he had gone out on the street and tried to intimidate and influence people? Yes. Therein lies the difference! Dressing up like a Marine or cop at a party to impress people should not be illegal (although it is stupid), dressing up like a Marine or cop to pull rank and intimidate or incarcerate people should be illegal. > > This isn’t that hard to figure out. > [@PunditLisa](#): > > Actually I think the fact that he was clearly “pretending to be a decorated Marine” is the big strike against him. That’s undoubtedly the key difference between “dressing up” and “impersonating.” Exactly. If **kidneyfailure** ’s friend had dressed up like a police officer, in full uniform and insignia, and told everyone at the party that he was a real police officer, I can assure you that these actions were illegal. We don’t allow people to actually impersonate the police, nor do we allow people to actually impersonate members of the military. That’s also not too hard to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/88 "2009-11-13T14:22:44Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Any chance the law’s made it through the court system? I can’t find a single case reference, but maybe you (or someone) will have better luck. Here’s one from a Florida appeals court that speaks to many of the issues raised in this thread: > **[5D07-3962.op.pdf](https://5dca.flcourts.gov/Opinions/Opin2008/102708/5D07-3962.op.pdf)** The case in question concerned a similar Florida statute and its constitutionality (rather that the Federal law), and interestingly, the appeals court found that the Florida statute was overbroad. They wrote that the Florida statute, as written, would “criminalize a child wearing his parent’s Army boots or a person wearing an imitation military uniform for Halloween.” They went on to criticize the Florida statute for containing “no requirement that the action be taken with the intent to deceive a reasonable person or in an effort to impersonate a member of the military.” In particular, the court found that the “State has a compelling interest in ensuring that the public is not deceived by people impersonating members of the military.” While the federal courts may find someday that the federal statute is similarly overbroad, I would personally have no problem with carving out further exceptions for Halloween costumes and the like, so long as the law continues to criminalize the actual impersonation of members of the military, with intent to deceive. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/89 "2009-11-13T15:20:52Z")
There’s been at least one conviction under this law. > [@](#): > > A Pomona man who once boasted of being awarded the Medal of Honor pleaded guilty in federal court Monday to lying about receiving the award, the nation’s top military honor. > > A subdued Xavier Alvarez, 50, who sits on the board of directors for the Three Valleys Municipal Water District in Claremont, admitted to violating the Stolen Valor Act, a recently enacted federal law that makes it a crime for a person to falsely claim he or she was awarded medals for service in the U.S. armed forces. Alvarez offered a First Amendment defense but it was rejected by the federal district court. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/90 "2009-11-13T16:08:32Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Fraud involves trying to obtain money or material goods by deception, generally. > > So, dressing up as a soldier (in an actual, recognisable uniform with proper rank and battalion badges etc) at a party simply to appear like you’re awesome and not a loser is entirely different to pretending to be a Gulf War Veteran to get free medical treatment, discounts at businesses, and other things to which they are not entitled. I just don’t get this logic. Speeding through a red light while you’re distracted in the middle of the night when no one is around and there is no danger is just as punishable as speeding through a red light in the middle of the day and causing a wake of fender benders behind you while running from the police. Your chances of getting out of the ticket are greater in the former, but the offense is just as punishable from a legal standpoint, for a reason. Maybe my analogy is flawed, but I’m just not seeing any difference here. ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/91 "2009-11-13T16:31:09Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > Legal question. > > Is it, in some places, a form of rape if you get laid under false pretenses? So if some woman at his reunion swoons over the uniform, and he is not a real marine, then isn’t that a form of rape? :dubious: Is it rape if a woman seduces a man while she is wearing make-up, heels and a push-up bra? Everybody lies or exagerates a little to get some. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/92 "2009-11-13T17:48:55Z")
True story: While at a costume party years ago I wore an 1800’s British officer’s uniform. It included a replica Afghan campaign medal. One old drunk guy gave me a ton of crap for trying to pass myself off as a veteran. Pith helmut notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/93 "2009-11-13T18:15:27Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I called you no such thing. I said that i had respect for the courage of the armed forces members. You said “Yeah right :rolleyes:”. If that’s not an accusation that i was lying, i don’t know what it is. Hypocrite. > [@robby](#): > > However, your own statements throughout this thread belie your supposed respect for those who have demonstrated valor and/or have been injured or killed in service to our country. Only in your feeble mind. I play softball three to four times a week. One of the pleasures of living in Southern California is the awesome weather. I play a pickup game with men and women, and a considerable portion of them are in the armed forces, mainly Marines and the Navy. Frequently, we lose people from our game because they have to get on the boat, or they have to ship out to the Middle East (again). And just as frequently we get people back who we haven’t seen for months on end. We have players who take phone calls in the middle of games because it’s the only time their brother or sister or spouse in Afghanistan or Iraq could make a call to them. These people are my friends. I couldn’t do what they do. Not only do i respect the type of valor required to get a medal, i respect the type of valor required simply to be a member of the armed forces and go into a dangerous situation. If you’re going to keep insisting otherwise, you can kiss my ass. > [@robby](#): > > And for your information, its not just the officers who get medals. Ooooh, wow. You sure burned me there. The poor dumb civilian used “officer” when he really meant all members of the military. I guess that invalidates my whole argument. :rolleyes: Back atcha. > [@robby](#): > > Yes, there may be only a few impostors around now. However, how many would there be if there were no punishment for doing so? How many of these impostors would it take before the awards in question become worthless because, more often than not, it wasn’t actually earned? You’re hilarious. Now your argument is that, if we don’t stop this, we’ll be overrun with fake marines. Get a life. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/94 "2009-11-13T20:59:13Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I said that i had respect for the courage of the armed forces members. You said “Yeah right :rolleyes:”. If that’s not an accusation that i was lying, i don’t know what it is. Yes, you wrote that not three sentences after also stating “Maybe, in my rush to defend our fake military, i have been overestimating our real military.” :rolleyes: Can you honestly not see that one might read your supposed respect for members of the military as being somewhat hollow? > [@mhendo](#): > > …These people are my friends. Is that so? Show them this thread sometime, then. > [@mhendo](#): > > …Only in your feeble mind. > > …you can kiss my ass. > > …Get a life. You know, you’ve been nothing but offensive in much of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/95 "2009-11-13T21:12:56Z")
> [@robby](#): > > However, your own statements throughout this thread belie your supposed respect for those who have demonstrated valor and/or have been injured or killed in service to our country. Actually, it is your statements in this thread that show a lack of respect for those who have demonstrated valor and/or have been injured or killed in service to our country. You are taking the very rights that those people fought and died to protect and flushing them down the toilet by banning speech you find distasteful. Also, the arguments you have advanced in this thread are so unbelievably bad, I almost think you are being intentionally obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/96 "2009-11-13T21:27:29Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Yes, you wrote that not three sentences after also stating “Maybe, in my rush to defend our fake military, i have been overestimating our real military.” :rolleyes: Can you honestly not see that one might read your supposed respect for members of the military as being somewhat hollow? You’re funny. My reference to “overestimating our real military” was not a dig at them; it was a dig at you. It was designed to show how ridiculous your argument was that simply walking around in a uniform poses a threat to national security. My point was that, if this were the case (it’s not), then it would be a pretty sad commentary on how bad our military security is in America. > [@robby](#): > > Is that so? Show them this thread sometime, then. Be happy to. Some, maybe even most, of them would probably disagree with my position on the Stolen Valor law, and on the wearing of military uniforms by non-military people. That’s fine. There have been others in this thread that i’ve disagreed with on the issue as well. As i said to **hajario** earlier on, i understand the visceral reaction on some level, and i also recognize that actual military people are more likely than most to have a visceral reaction to this issue. But, as **hajario** admitted, this visceral reaction is not necessarily rational, and i don’t believe our laws should simply reflect our visceral reactions to things we don’t like; they should reflect compelling and rational arguments about benefits to society as a whole. Anyway, whether my military friends agreed with my interpretations or not, i think they would all believe me when i say i respect what they do, and that the presence in our society of a few douchebags dressing up as fake military heroes doesn’t change that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/97 "2009-11-13T21:29:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Hypocrite.Only in your feeble mind. WARNING: Personal insults are NOT allowed in MPSIMS. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/98 "2009-11-13T21:31:28Z")
**mhendo** , you are in MPSIMS and insults are not allowed. Neither is inappropriate language. You are welcome to have and argue whatever position you want, but in this forum keep it civil. Consider yourself warned. **Ellen Cherry MPSIMS Moderator** ETA — Sorry, Wombat and I cross-posted. Warning stands. Everybody, cool it. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/99 "2009-11-13T21:34:44Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Actually, it is your statements in this thread that show a lack of respect for those who have demonstrated valor and/or have been injured or killed in service to our country. You are taking the very rights that those people fought and died to protect and flushing them down the toilet by banning speech you find distasteful. > > Also, the arguments you have advanced in this thread are so unbelievably bad, I almost think you are being intentionally obtuse. Wow. The first paragraph is so laughable it barely deserves acknowledgment. As to the second paragraph, I’d say the onus is on you, since **robby** is arguing from the side with the law. You’re arguing against it. **robby** has offered arguments in defense of the law. What have you offered? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292/100 "2009-11-13T21:56:02Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > WARNING: > > Personal insults are NOT allowed in MPSIMS. I’ll cop to the “feeble mind” one. The “hypocrite” was not an insult, it was a statement of fact. He essentially called me a liar, and then berated me for being insulting. I know of no other term for that except hypocrisy. > [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > **mhendo** , you are in MPSIMS and insults are not allowed. Neither is inappropriate language.. As i said, i’ll cop to the personal insult. I did it, and it was against the rules. But what do you mean “inappropriate language”? Are you talking about swearing? I wasn’t aware of any language restrictions in this forum. The restriction, as far as i can tell, is on personal insults, whether or not they involve swearing. Fuck. Shit. Piss. Cunt. Those words appear in plenty of MPSIMS thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-marine-in-full-uniform-at-his-high-school-reunion-is-found-out-by-classmate-arrested-with-pic/517292.md?page=6)