# Fake Slates of Electors from Seven States **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 14, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800 "2022-01-14T18:50:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/21 "2022-01-14T22:23:12Z")
It seems not to be in compliance with the law if the National Archives would refuse to send a “purported” slate simply because it did not have the governor’s signature. The law that @flurb cited recognizes that there might be purported returns without a governor’s signature. Further, what would stop a rogue governor from withholding his or her signature on a valid return? Note: This is for fun hypothetical purposes only; not that I am suggesting any party or person should ever do it. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/22 "2022-01-14T22:38:28Z")
It looks like PDFs of both the (official/final/legit) Ascertainments and Certificates of Votes for each state are accessible through: > **[2020 Electoral College Results](https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/2020)** > > President Joseph R. Biden Jr. \[D\] Main Opponent Donald J. Trump \[R\] Electoral Vote Winner: 306 Main Opponent: 232 Total/Majority: 538/270 Vice President Kamala D. Harris \[D\] V.P. Opponent: Michael R. It begs the question of whether “high quality” forgeries would have ended up with Pence as the tie-breaker. Maybe the real impediment to the treason effort was shitty Photoshop work. Which is what I meant by administrative (or clerical) failures. It just has to pass some sort of scrutiny by the National Archives in order to make it to Congress, it seems. Just where _is_ that bar ? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/23 "2022-01-14T22:47:52Z")
> [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > The DoJ needs to sweep them all up and hold them for a scary day or two while they face reality --and let them cough up bigger fish. Whoever told them to sign the things and sent them in to the authorities need to be swept up also. Then squeeze these pimples until, inevitably, orange starts to spit out of them. Once one of them admit that either Trump himself, or his lawyer or other representative told or “suggested” to take these steps the former administration is actually toast. There’s no way this was Trump’s idea – it involves more than one step. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/24 "2022-01-14T22:51:06Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > I’d be curious at what point in these process these fake slates were stopped. Did the Archivist receive them, forward them to the VP, etc. IIRC, on Maddow’s show last night, she mentioned that at least one of the suspect slates was sent back, by the archivist, to the legislature of that state. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/25 "2022-01-14T23:08:19Z")
That was Michigan. Michigan has sent the slate of trump electors to doj for federal prosecution. Mi ag is considering state charges as well. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/26 "2022-01-14T23:13:52Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > But the process is for states to submit their certificates of electors to the National Archives. The article is paywalled but the Arizona Republic had this to say about that today: On Dec. 14, 2020, a group of prominent Republicans, including the party’s chair, Kelli Ward, former lawmaker Anthony Kern and incoming legislator Jake Hoffman signed a document declaring themselves the state’s electors, in favor of Trump… But Trump had lost Arizona. Gov. Doug Ducey had certified the election results in late November. By state statute, the only electors who mattered were those pledged to cast their votes for President-elect Joe Biden and Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, as they did Dec. 14, 2020, at noon. The document the Republicans signed, obtained from the National Archives last year by the group American Oversight, overlooked that detail. To recap, Arizona’s traitor’s did sent their fake certificates of electors to the National Archives. I don’t know what happened to them after that. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/27 "2022-01-14T23:16:14Z")
> [@rocking\_chair](#): > > Michigan has sent the slate of trump electors to doj for federal prosecution. Mi ag is considering state charges as well. Cite for this? Would love to see someone face consequences for lying and forgery. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/28 "2022-01-14T23:17:32Z")
This is all playing out in real-time: [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/michigan-ag-asks-feds-investigate-fake-gop-electors-82263515](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/michigan-ag-asks-feds-investigate-fake-gop-electors-82263515) ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/29 "2022-01-14T23:20:31Z")
Thanks. Fingers crossed that the other states take seriously the attempt to subvert elections using forgery, lies and conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/30 "2022-01-14T23:22:59Z")
Rachel had the ag and sos of Michigan on last night. The ag felt that doj could get to who was behind the template that multiple states used better than mi. The wording and template was very similar in each of the states found to do this so far. Ag has not ruled out state charges as there would not be a double jeopardy thing with state and fed. charges. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/31 "2022-01-14T23:24:37Z")
His name was **[RICO](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act)** He wore a diamond He was escorted to his chair He saw Lola dancing there … [a guy can dream] ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/32 "2022-01-14T23:58:24Z")
It sounds to me that implicit in the whole process to handle alleged conflicting ballots, was that they be conflicting _apparently legit_ ballots. Because, until now, it would have been understood that no sensible officialdom would just allow trolls to ball up the process. … **Subversive:** “I hereby submit this slate, indicating that the Electors from this state are the following, and cast their votes for Donald Trump” **Official:** “Oh? That’s nice… and _ **you** _ are…?” **Subversive** : “…uh… the State Vice Chair of the Make America Even Greater committee” **Official:** “Good, good… so, not from the Governor’s office… not the Elections Supervisor… not the Speaker of the Assembly… right. So, did these ‘electors’ cast these ballots at the seat of the State Legislature on the statuted date?” **Subversive** : “…ummm… no… at the Airport Day’s Inn.” **Official:** “I see…” **Subversive** : “…is there a problem?” **Official:** “Need Answer Fast?” ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2022, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/33 "2022-01-15T00:00:54Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > **Subversive** : “…ummm… no… at the Airport Day’s Inn.” > **Official:** “I see…” _Come on._ Everybody knows that Electors always cast their ballots at Four Seasons Total Landscaping. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2022, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/34 "2022-01-15T00:13:07Z")
The Act is pretty prescriptive about what must be counted, but it also provides a procedure for objecting to electors if at least one Representative and one Senator do so in writing. In such instance, a majority in both chambers must vote to sustain the objection. While Republicans were planning last year to object to numerous states electors, they only objected to Arizona and Pennsylvania (they were in the middle of considering the Arizona objection when the incursion happened, and no Republican Senator would support an additional objection except for Josh Hawley on Pennsylvania because he’s a piece of shit). And like any set of rules, it depends on a certain amount of fidelity by the participants. There’s any number of ways that Pence in particular could have been in a position to subvert the process. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2022, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/35 "2022-01-15T00:24:48Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > > [@JRDelirious](#): > > > > **Subversive** : “…ummm… no… at the Airport Day’s Inn.” > > **Official:** “I see…” > > _Come on._ Everybody knows that Electors always cast their ballots at > > Four Seasons Total Landscaping. - With a porn shop next door? No way. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2022, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/36 "2022-01-15T00:38:03Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > It sounds to me that implicit in the whole process to handle alleged conflicting ballots, was that they be conflicting _apparently legit_ ballots. Because, until now, it would have been understood that no sensible officialdom would just allow trolls to ball up the process. While I’m sure that there probably was an understanding that obvious crank documents would be put in the round file (even though this would seem to violate the letter of the law), in my research I found that on at least one occasion an obvious joke certificate was opened and read. Of course, this was back when the counting of electors was a dull, boring, preordained formality where Senators and Congressmen could have a little harmless joke with their colleagues instead of an avenue to attempt a coup. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2022, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/37 "2022-01-15T01:49:45Z")
Part of the investigative process should be determining how much of this activity was done _prior_ to Election Day (both with regard to this aspect and all the others) in order to undermine any claim that is was in response to any vote fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/38 "2022-01-16T12:39:18Z")
> [@Temporary\_Name](#): > > Ideally one of the state party chairs will fold and name Trump. Then they will show video of that person spilling and the entire cast of **Sedition 2020** will jump on board and throw Trump under his own bus. Some of them may try, but it won’t matter. Trump, and by extension his inner circle, religiously follow the “will no one rid me of this troublesome priest” leadership model favored by mob bosses. They do not issue direct orders, they express desires vaguely into the ether and trust that their minions will deliver. In this case, I would be shocked if Trump or any of his delegates directly called any of these state actors and explicitly told them to create and submit falsified election material of this or any other sort. Rather, as far as I can tell, the Trump White House and its allies in think tanks and the media formulated a hypothetical course of events according to which Trump could be re-elected, and then said, Wouldn’t it be interesting if something like this were to happen. The loyalists at lower levels took the hint and ran with the ball, and now here we are. Courts and prosecutors aren’t stupid, and this kind of transparent indirect guidance in organized crime is not a reliable shield for escaping accountability. Where consistent downward pressure and rewards for collaborators can be documented, even where no explicit commands are recorded, convictions can be and have been obtained. In this case, though, the political dimension makes this a much dicier proposition, as courts are loath to intrude on the boundaries of acceptable political speech. While Trump’s MO will be seen as scummy and dangerous, absent a foolish mistake where Trump or a lieutenant generated an unambiguous command to falsify the results, deliberate intent will remain deniable. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/39 "2022-01-16T13:54:38Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > This seems new: Uh, no. It was widely reported at the time. And it was integral to the Jan 6th plot. The plan was to give Pence two slates of electors, and have him declare that he can’t choose between them. > **[Trump lawyer ‘gave Pence six-step guide on how to overturn election’](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-lawyer-mike-pence-election-b1924123.html)** > > Donald Trump’s vice president ultimately refused to obstruct certification of Joe Biden’s victory – and had to be evacuated from the Senate chamber during the attack on the US Capitol _According to Mr Eastman’s plan, which was never enacted even in part, Mr Pence would have interrupted the normal procedure of reading out the Electoral College vote by abruptly announcing that Arizona has sent “multiple slates of electors”, and that as a result, he would “defer decision on that until finishing the other states”. The other “disputed” states that Mr Biden in fact won would be similarly pushed aside._ _Mr Pence would then have gone on to announce that “because of the ongoing disputes in the 7 states, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those states” – reducing the number of “electors appointed” to 454. At that point, Mr Pence would have gavelled Mr Trump as re-elected with 232 votes._ > [@silenus](#): > > Here’s hoping DoJ is preparing a bunch of new indictments. Every name attached to those documents should do hard time. And lots of it. Agreed. I don’t understand why there haven’t been prosecutions yet. > [@Akaj](#): > > Was there any real chance the fake slates would be mistaken for the real ones? No, the plan was for Pence to deliberately accept them as equally valid. Fortunately, Pence refused to go along with it. > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > This is all playing out in real-time: > > [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/michigan-ag-asks-feds-investigate-fake-gop-electors-82263515](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/michigan-ag-asks-feds-investigate-fake-gop-electors-82263515) About bloody time too. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/40 "2022-01-16T14:42:13Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris quoting The Independent](#): > > According to Mr Eastman’s plan, which was never enacted even in part This is the part that seems in contradiction to the information brought forth in this thread. ISTM that the National Archives deemed the forged documents from the seven contested states _to be_ invalid, but that – had that step gone the other way (what I called a ‘better Photoshop job’) – Pence might have actually received ‘contested slates’ and been _in a position to_ throw the election. It reminds me a bit of the **[Japanese Fu-Go Bombs in WWII](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu-Go_balloon_bomb)** – probably something of a Hail Mary, but if they had _worked_ … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800.md?page=3)