# Fake Slates of Electors from Seven States **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 14, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800 "2022-01-14T18:50:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/101 "2022-01-27T01:09:21Z")
Sitting here, I can’t say that you are wrong, but would have to research it. I find it hard to believe that a simple “intent to defraud” could be shown when this is a national election and everyone knows that Biden won, say, PA. If a group shows up with a certificate saying that they are the “true” electors from PA who are voting for Trump, then all are on board with understanding the whole scenario. These people are simply claiming that Trump won PA, which the evidence shows is false. Nobody is deceived, and the “forgers” know this, and therefore the intent to defraud is absent. Again, I would have to look again, but that is my off the cuff argument/thought. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/102 "2022-01-27T01:23:35Z")
I agree, you need to research what actually happened. A lot. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/103 "2022-01-27T01:27:05Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I don’t know about all of this forgery stuff. It has to be for the purposes of fooling a reasonable person, e.g., if I write a “dollar bill” in crayon, then nobody will reasonably believe it to be U.S. currency, so therefore I am not guilty of counterfeiting. Or, you could be falsely charged with counterfeiting because you’re on the Big Boss’s enemies list. Back in the early 1970s, some shop in Marin County was selling coffee mugs with a cartoonish picture of a Richard Nixon 3-dollar bill on it. [![](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/be/71/1d/be711df2613863a8797085bcc4f429c7.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/be/71/1d/be711df2613863a8797085bcc4f429c7.jpg) The Secret Service swooped in a confiscated them all, accusing them of owning/possessing/selling counterfeit money. (The story was met with universal ridicule, of course, and the case was quickly dropped.) ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/104 "2022-01-27T01:55:38Z")
Are you sure of the details in that story? From what I understand, such cases are usually about copyright violation, not forgery. The design is owned by the government, and you have to get their permission and probably pay a fee before you start selling copies printed on mugs, towels or T-shirts. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/105 "2022-01-27T02:07:14Z")
That’s not true at all. U.S. currency designs are government works, so they are _not_ copyrighted or trademarked. You do _not_ need government permission or have to pay a fee to the government to use government works - they are all by definition in the public domain. There are only a handful of exceptions, and currency designs aren’t one of them: > **[U.S. Government Works | USAGov](https://www.usa.gov/government-works)** > > Learn more about how copyright applies to U.S. government works. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/106 "2022-01-27T02:12:09Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > U.S. currency designs are government works, so they are _not_ copyrighted or trademarked. And certainly not a clearly hand-drawn parody of a bank note. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/107 "2022-01-27T02:29:36Z")
And it’s legal. > **[Promotional fake United States currency](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotional_fake_United_States_currency)** > > Promotional fake United States currency is faux "currency" that makes no assertion of being legal tender. This money is often created by individuals as a way to promote practical jokes, or social statements. It is legal to print so long as it makes no assertion, whether by appearance or statement, of authenticity. Promotional United States fake currency is not to be confused with counterfeit currency or conflated with legitimate currency that has been demonetized. > In the 1970s, copper coins know... ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/108 "2022-01-27T02:40:05Z")
Well, the cases I heard about were in the UK, where the banknotes have a copyright notice. Different countries, different laws, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/109 "2022-01-27T03:13:45Z")
Huh. I guess I’m so used to U.S. copyright law that something like that never occurred to me. It seems really weird to me to copyright money, but it seems that UK currency is indeed held under copyright by the Bank of England. (Although it seems like a novelty mug would probably fall under the general permission for [the use of images of UK currency](https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/using-images-of-banknotes)). ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/110 "2022-01-27T12:19:22Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Huh. I guess I’m so used to U.S. copyright law that something like that never occurred to me. It seems really weird to me to copyright money, . . . It would mean that every time you use currency to buy something, you will have to pay a royalty to the currency copyright holder. What a strange notion. Oh wait a minute. We already do that, even here in most parts of the United States. We call it “sales tax” here. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/111 "2022-01-27T15:05:28Z")
Well, not exactly, since money is issued by the federal government and sales taxes are levied by state and local governments. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/112 "2022-01-27T17:31:12Z")
It shows intent to interfere with the electoral process, an indictable offence under 18 U.S. Code Section 595. So you might to keep your crayons in the box and the Nixon novelty mugs on the shelf. ---
**Author:** ![Temporary\_Name](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Temporary\_Name](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Temporary_Name)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/113 "2022-01-27T18:37:04Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Here is a two paragraph quote, which fingers Guiliani as the instigator: > > "In this case, the Trump electors met, as if the 45th president had been reelected, to cast their electoral votes. That’s probably ok, since it’s really just a protest statement. If a group of, say, Green Party members want to get together and loudly cast their “electoral votes” for the Green Party candidate, they can do it. However, more than a dozen Trump electors were leery that they were being used for purposes beyond protest, and so bailed on the scheme. This is where we start to get into lawbreaking, since the defectors were replaced by fiat, meaning that the new “electors” were representing themselves as something they were not. > > After these “electoral votes” were cast, then Giuliani (and several associates) went from “probably breaking the law” to “full-blown felony.” They cooked up fraudulent electoral certificates, got signatures from the highest-profile person willing to play along, and sent those to the archivist of the United States. To quote Michigan AG Dana Nessel (D), that is “an open-and-shut case of forgery of a public record.” The fraudulent certificates were rejected, of course." I would suggest there are two tiers of guilty for the signers. I certainly hope the DOJ and state prosecutors investigate the entire scheme and hold those who cooked it up responsible. Despite the always wise words of **Ann\_Hedonia** , it would be MOST ideal if the 45th president can be tied to this plot and prosecuted, but at the very least Rudy and most of the former president’s campaign staff should be convicted. Sadly, if history is any guide, they will all go serve their terms in prison and never roll over on Trump. But those who signed the documents fall into two different categories in my estimation. Those in the two states (New Mexico and Pennsylvania) who bothered to put qualifiers into the language of the certificates should be forbidden to ever hold public office at the federal, state, county, or municipal level – have to plead guilty to “something” [low level misdemeanor is fine as far as I am concerned] – pay a fine, and spend a year or so on probation but avoid prison time. Those who signed and sent in a slate of electors but not bothered to claim the slate was “just in case” in the document itself should be prosecuted and suffer all I mentioned above plus lengthy prison sentences. At LEAST five years before early release is considered and perhaps double that. That is my opinion and good advice for our country if I say so myself. It would eliminate the argument going on in another thread about whether it is better to kill the head or the tail of the snake that has become the modern GOP. Kill them both (and if you want- bury them separately in consecrated soil with a stake through their supposed hearts). Here is a link to the article that showed up and got me thinking along these lines: > **[The 59 Republicans Who Joined In Electoral Voter Fraud Scheme For Trump Could...](https://news.yahoo.com/59-republicans-joined-electoral-voter-110000351.html)** > > What seemed like political theater at the time actually violated state and federal fraud laws, according to current and former prosecutors. And just for the record, I do not believe Trump is as unreachable as others do. He certainly has been good at avoiding criminal prosecution, but he has lost plenty of civil suits and he may have done things where paying off the other side does not get them to drop the matter. I see his reckless criminal behavior not as a masterclass in avoiding self incrimination. I see it as those madmen on motorcycles who speed through traffic on city streets defying the law of averages at every intersection. Running red lights at high speeds, swerving into oncoming traffic, squeezing through ridiculously tight spaces, etc. It is amazing to watch . . . . until the end where they always seem to go airborne and die after plowing into some innocent vehicle. I hope this time Trump does not just get away on the other side of traffic. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/114 "2022-01-27T19:00:14Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Well, the cases I heard about were in the UK, where the banknotes have a copyright notice. Different countries, different laws, I suppose. I have a Banksy of England 10 pound note with Princess Diana’s picture on it. Is it illegal??? He made them and distributed them at a street fair in London years ago. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2022, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/115 "2022-11-11T17:45:29Z")
I know the general consensus is against omnibus threads, but holy hell, if there is a subject in which one is needed, the legal problems of America’s greatest criminal is one. Anyway, with it becoming more and more apparent that Trump is damaged goods, interesting things are happening in this case, as dreams of pardons have come to reality: > > [@](#): > > Republicans who claimed to be Georgia’s legitimate presidential electors in 2020 said Friday they were advised by then-President Donald Trump’s campaign to cast “contingent” Electoral College ballots — just in case one of Trump’s longshot legal challenges to the results succeeded. > > Any plans by top Trump lawyers — John Eastman, Rudy Giuliani and others — to use their “provisional” votes to subvert the 2020 election without any legal backing were concocted without their knowledge, attorneys for the pro-Trump activists said. I don’t necessarily believe these people, but this is notable in that they are _definitely_ trying to claw their way out of any Eastman fallout and, to prove it, spent 41 pages arguing their case. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2022, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/116 "2022-11-13T03:43:35Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > And certainly not a clearly hand-drawn parody of a bank note. This reminds me of the Mitchell and Webb skit where Robert Webb is playing a counterfeiter, except his ten-pound notes say “Ten Punds” and the picture on is is the Queen of Denmark. The thing is, he’s actually TRYING, he’s just stupid. So… is that a crime? ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/117 "2022-12-06T19:19:41Z")
special counsel jack smith has issued subpoenas in three states; wisconsin, arizona, and michigan. they were issued on nov. 22nd. i continue to be impressed by sc smith. [Special counsel Jack Smith subpoenas Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin officials for Trump communications in Jan. 6 probe - The Washington Post](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/12/06/jack-smith-trump-communications-subpoenas/) Special counsel Jack Smith has subpoenaed local officials in Arizona, Michigan and Wisconsin — three states that were central to former president Donald Trump’s failed plan to stay in power following the 2020 [election](https://www.washingtonpost.com/elections/?itid=lk_inline_manual_2) — for any and all communications with Trump, his campaign and a long list of aides and allies. The subpoenas, at least three of which are dated Nov. 22, show that Smith is extending the Justice Department’s examination of the circumstances leading up to the Capitol attack to include local election officials and their potential interactions with the former president and his representatives. The virtually identical requests to Arizona and Wisconsin name Trump individually, in addition to employees, agents and attorneys for his campaign. Details of the Michigan subpoena, confirmed by Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson, were not immediately available. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/118 "2022-12-06T19:29:52Z")
Cool, thanks. Would be nice if they could ensnare Wisc. Sen. Ron Johnson in this. Doubt it, though. He’s too dumb to really be involved in a any “scheme” substantively (I mean “dumb” seriously, not as some childish taunt). ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/119 "2022-12-06T20:09:51Z")
add in pennsylvania! the false electors in pa were able to keep their toes just on the proper side of the line. ag shapiro looked very carefully at the wording on the documents and they did hedge just enough to stay inbounds. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800/120 "2022-12-06T20:58:55Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > (I mean “dumb” seriously, not as some childish taunt). A spokesman for Johnson has been quoted as saying that “Senator Johnson knows you are, but what is he?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fake-slates-of-electors-from-seven-states/957800.md?page=7)