# Falcon and the Winter Soldier (Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, disney-hulu\ **Created:** [March 19, 2021, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217 "2021-03-19T08:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/421 "2021-04-23T23:44:52Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > I’ve also got to say, the randomly fluctuating threat levels that the super-soldiers posed bugged me. In the end, a whole group of them get taken down without a fight because…some cops point guns at them. Classic Conservation of Ninjitsu problem. One super soldier by himself is an unstoppable threat. Half a dozen super soldiers together are a bunch of easily defeated mooks. That’s why they needed Sam to help arrest that lone super soldier who fell out of the helicopter - with all the other super soldiers arrested, he was incredibly dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2021, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/422 "2021-04-23T23:46:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Classic Conservation of Ninjitsu problem. One super soldier by himself is an unstoppable threat. Half a dozen super soldiers together are a bunch of easily defeated mooks. That’s why they needed Sam to help arrest that lone super soldier who fell out of the helicopter - with all the other super soldiers arrested, he was incredibly dangerous. Dammit! It’s so obvious once you point it out! How could I have forgotten the Inverse Ninja Law?! ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/423 "2021-04-24T00:23:38Z")
I don’t know how to quote a post yet, so… The Serum doesn’t make you bulletproof, and that many cops + Bucky and Value City Cap was a no-win situation. Why not give up? Yes, Zemo’s a hero-killer with realistic goals and not totally nuts. He respects Bucky and knows Walker is ruined, so why not kill the other Flags? Sam used his backpack and drones to hold up the truck. Slightly more realistic, but I’d have liked it better if he and Walker had worked together to hold up the truck. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/424 "2021-04-24T00:28:03Z")
[At least he wasn’t holding it up by its windshield.](https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/a0QrrGL_700b.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/425 "2021-04-24T00:45:12Z")
Well that was certainly an uneven mini series. It was nice that Isiah got his recognition and I liked how at the end the subtlety changed the title to Captain America and the Winter Soldier. I guess Sharon is the big bad in season 2. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/426 "2021-04-24T01:05:28Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I don’t know how to quote a post yet, so… If you’re on a PC, use the mouse to highlight the text you want (left-click and hold on one end of the line and drag the mouse across/down or up until you get to the end of the section you want to quote then release). You should get a pop up saying \< "Quote \> to the top left of the section you highlighted. Click on that, and Discourse will create a reply window for you with the highlighted text in it. If you already have a reply window open, you can do the same thing to add more quotes to your reply. > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > The Serum doesn’t make you bulletproof, and that many cops + Bucky and Value City Cap was a no-win situation. Why not give up? Because they’ve fought armed opponents before. And in the MCU, even un-powered characters, like Black Widow and Hawkeye, routinely mop the floor with cops and soldiers. And these cops even got into arms reach, aka “Please take my gun from me and beat me unconscious with it” position. Not to mention, surrounding them like that just means if the cops open fire, they’re going to hit each other. Honestly, it didn’t bother me that much from a character perspective. At that point, it seemed like those characters may have realized Karli’s plans didn’t really make much sense, and were willing to give up even though they could have fought their way out. It just seemed so at odds with how everyone had been treating them up until then. But, as @Miller pointed out, I had forgotten the Inverse Ninja Law… > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Yes, Zemo’s a hero-killer with realistic goals and not totally nuts. He respects Bucky and knows Walker is ruined, so why not kill the other Flags? No, I get that Zemo thinks the world would be better off if no one had powers. That’s his whole thing. But, it just seemed really random to kill those specific powered people, who were about to be put away for life anyway. If he has the power to orchestrate a hit on people under close guard like that while he himself is in a maximum security prison, why hasn’t he been waging an assassination campaign against all the powered people in the world this whole time? Why did he pick them, and not Wanda and Black Panther and Spider-Man and Ant-Man and Wasp and… > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Sam used his backpack and drones to hold up the truck. Slightly more realistic, but I’d have liked it better if he and Walker had worked together to hold up the truck. Right, and if he had used the suit’s wings to brace the truck, I wouldn’t have minded. But he’s clearly shown holding the truck’s front grill with his _bare hands_, using his _arms_ to support the weight. I get that his jet pack is providing the thrust, but he’s still holding the truck himself. I agree, though, that the scene would have both been more believable, and I think narratively and dramatically much better, if he and Walker had had to cooperate. That’s actually such an obvious approach that I seriously wonder if the writers actively rejected it as _too_ trite… ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/427 "2021-04-24T01:21:36Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > It was nice that Isiah got his recognition and I liked how at the end the subtlety changed the title to Captain America and the Winter Soldier. I would have much preferred Captain America and Bucky or at least the White Wolf, since he is very much not the Winter Soldier anymore and that was the whole point of his arc. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/428 "2021-04-24T01:23:54Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > So, why did Zemo have his butler blow up the super-soldiers? Just general principles? Basically. Zemo doesn’t like enhanced humans. He wanted to destroy the Avengers in revenge for the destruction of Sokovia and wants to destroy super soldier serum and super soldiers. He sees enhanced people as a danger to everyone else. He only grudgingly concedes Steve Rogers and later Bucky Barnes aren’t so bad. So yes, after destroying the serum, from Zemo’s viewpoint the next step is to destroy the supers. He doesn’t care if he dies doing it, and being imprisoned doesn’t matter either. He’s lost his family and his country, what more can be done to him? > [@gdave](#): > > In the end, a whole group of them get taken down without a fight because…some cops point guns at them. And Karli gets killed by a double tap from an ordinary handgun. I guess at least now we know why the U.S. government apparently gave up on recreating the serum back in the '50s. It’s not actually that much use… Yep. Super soldiers aren’t bullet proof. Fancy that. Iron Man’s suit is actually a better way to go about making a better soldier. > [@gdave](#): > > No, I get that Zemo thinks the world would be better off if no one had powers. That’s his whole thing. But, it just seemed really random to kill those specific powered people, who were about to be put away for life anyway. If he has the power to orchestrate a hit on people under close guard like that while he himself is in a maximum security prison, why hasn’t he been waging an assassination campaign against all the powered people in the world this whole time? Why did he pick them, and not Wanda and Black Panther and Spider-Man and Ant-Man and Wasp and… How do you know that’s not in his future plans? He’s sort of a baddie that keeps on giving… > [@gdave](#): > > Also, I’m usually ok with comic book physics, but when Sam, who is still human, supports the armored car _with his arms_ , the show lost me. His arms… in a Wakanda supersuit, along with his flight engine and his two drones. Yeah, sort of lost me, too, even with fanwanking. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/429 "2021-04-24T01:30:45Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > His arms… in a Wakanda supersuit, Actually…that’s a good point which I hadn’t considered. The suit might actually enhance his strength or the arms and gauntlets might be able to lock into place or something. With comic book physics, anyway, that actually seems plausible. Objection provisionally withdrawn. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/430 "2021-04-24T01:34:16Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > No, I get that Zemo thinks the world would be better off if no one had powers. That’s his whole thing. But, it just seemed really random to kill those specific powered people, who were about to be put away for life anyway. If he has the power to orchestrate a hit on people under close guard like that while he himself is in a maximum security prison, why hasn’t he been waging an assassination campaign against all the powered people in the world this whole time? Why did he pick them, and not Wanda and Black Panther and Spider-Man and Ant-Man and Wasp and… Well, Black Panther (and Widow) would be tough, but the rest I grant you as targets. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/431 "2021-04-24T01:37:53Z")
On the whole I agree the finale was underwhelming. Batroc is sadly dead and I don’t like Sharon as a bad guy with so little buildup. Also Walker snapped out of his madness a little too easily. Too many long speeches IMHO. And how did he get Isaiah’s stuff in the museum that easily? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/432 "2021-04-24T01:46:36Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > And how did he get Isaiah’s stuff in the museum that easily? Probably told them the alternative was him going public about the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/433 "2021-04-24T01:47:19Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Actually…that’s a good point which I hadn’t considered. The suit might actually enhance his strength or the arms and gauntlets might be able to lock into place or something. With comic book physics, anyway, that actually seems plausible. Objection provisionally withdrawn. Yeah, the Wakandan tech is pretty damn advanced, they can probably build something on par with an Iron Man suit, but less bulky and that looks cooler. Certainly, Sam took some hits in that fight that make it clear to me that at the very least the suit is body armor. And the wings must be vibranium or something, to deflect a falling helicopter the way they did at one point. Aerodynamically, the Falcon suit, and the Cap suit, never have had sufficient surface area to support a man in flight. They fly utilizing that “jet” pack or whatever powers it, the wings are basically fancy directional control. Pretty much NONE of the flying in the MCU adheres to real physics in our world. At least with Doctor Strange and the like you can say “a ~~wizard~~ sorcerer did it” ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/434 "2021-04-24T01:51:17Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Probably told them the alternative was him going public about the whole thing. Eh, I don’t buy they’d comply. “Go public about what?” Or just disappear Bradley again. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/435 "2021-04-24T01:54:57Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > If he has the power to orchestrate a hit on people under close guard like that while he himself is in a maximum security prison, why hasn’t he been waging an assassination campaign against all the powered people in the world this whole time? Why did he pick them, and not Wanda and Black Panther and Spider-Man and Ant-Man and Wasp and… Zemo never expected to survive the events of Civil War, so he probably didn’t have the necessary arrangements in place to carry out his war against super humans from prison. After Bucky breaks him out, he figures there’s a pretty good chance Bucky won’t just execute him, so he takes the time to get everything he needs in place to still order hits while inside prison. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/436 "2021-04-24T02:07:34Z")
I think the biggest clue that Sharon Carter is a Skrull is the disguise she wore when she first appears in this episode. It was wholly unnecessary, so therefore hints at something. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/437 "2021-04-24T02:08:49Z")
It was necessary while traveling, not once she got there. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/438 "2021-04-24T02:25:43Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > I think the biggest clue that Sharon Carter is a Skrull is the disguise she wore when she first appears in this episode. It was wholly unnecessary, so therefore hints at something. It was wholly necessary. She’s a wanted fugitive. And a pretty high profile one - former high level SHIELD agent and former CIA agent who went rogue during the super hero Civil War, added and abetted Captain America when _he_ went rogue…And she’s not only returning to the U.S. where she’s wanted for treason, she’s infiltrating a heavily secured area full of heavily armed personnel with itchy trigger fingers looking for anyone who _might_ be hostile. On the other hand, she then proceeds to wander around the GRC HQ _without_ the disguise, including openly interacting with security personnel, so…you might have a point, there. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/439 "2021-04-24T02:41:03Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > On the other hand, she then proceeds to wander around the GRC HQ _without_ the disguise, including openly interacting with security personnel, so…you might have a point, there That is, indeed, my point. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/440 "2021-04-24T02:45:20Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > That is, indeed, my point. On the gripping hand…the Mission Impossible mask reveal really seemed more like a throwaway cool superspy moment that also concisely dealt with questions about how she got back into the U.S. and through the security cordon around the GRC than any sort of clue to something deeper. Frankly, unlike say _WandaVision_, nothing in _Falcon and the Winter Soldier_ seemed that tightly plotted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217.md?page=23)