# Falcon and the Winter Soldier (Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** tv-shows-scripted, disney-hulu\ **Created:** [March 19, 2021, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217 "2021-03-19T08:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/441 "2021-04-24T02:46:25Z")
Now we have _Captain America 4_ to look forward to. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/442 "2021-04-24T03:34:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sure, makes sense. Their motivations are pretty clearly stated, though, so I don’t know why you’d need to do that. _They have said it out loud._ I didn’t pick up _any_ of that. It wasn’t clear to me at all what they were upset about. They made some vague noises about injustice and restoring unity, but it was, as **Omniscient** so aptly put it, mushy. Falcon may have explained it, but this show was burdened with too much exposition to make it really stand out. This is a storytelling problem, and it led to one of the least well-defined villains in MCU history. _Vulture_ was more compelling than this. The show succeeds in spite of this, but it’s probably what could have turned a good show to a great one. And, yes, thank you, **Miller** for explaining it. I would still be lost if you hadn’t. > [@GuanoLad](#): > > Well that was an unsurprising and somewhat lacklustre ending. The show takes very few creative risks. At least I’ll give WV credit for that even if FATWS is the better show. > [@Pavelb1](#): > > Good thing Isiah was ok with being a wing of the Captain America museum! Cause it all flys directly in the face of what he was telling Sam. Ayup. I’m very happy for Sam as Captain America though. He earned it. And I like that the show didn’t whitewash the racial baggage that came with it. ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/443 "2021-04-24T04:02:59Z")
I don’t think we know Batroc is dead… RE :Mooks and people with guns…I’ve mentioned it before and gave it some more thought today and came to the realization that (Assuming he’s as proficient with a firearm as he is with a bow and sword…) Hawkeye is actually one of the most powerful Avengers around. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/444 "2021-04-24T04:16:00Z")
…one of my favourite TV shows is Elementary. But I’m not a fan of that show’s [a-story](https://www.tv-calling.com/what-are-a-b-and-c-stories-in-screenwriting-tv-writing-101/#:~:text=The%20%E2%80%9CA%20story%E2%80%9D%20will%20be,headed%20by%20more%20secondary%20characters.). In fact most of the time I can’t even remember what the a-story was, some of them were unbelievably bad, and some I found out-right offensive. But I loved the show for everything outside of the a-story. I loved the b-stories and the c-stories, I loved the friendships and the relationships and the complex dynamics and the characters and all of that as a whole was enough to elevate the series for me. I could tolerate the boring “detective stories with a twist” because it meant I could spend a little bit more time hanging out with these characters that I just absolutely loved, flaws and all. And ultimately that’s where Falcon and the Winter Soldier sits with me. The a-story just didn’t land. I just don’t think it held together. I think some of the specuation that a pandemic plotline was surgically removed was probably correct, but even then that doesn’t excuse the terrible world-building and the wild pivots in character that everyone here is pointing out. I could go on and on and on about all the things ins the main plot that didn’t work, that wasn’t properly set up, and how all of this could have been fixed with a few lines of dialog and rearranging some of the key plot-beats. But I’ll leave that for everyone else. But outside of the a-story I pretty much loved everything else about this show. I could have watched six episodes of Sam and Bucky building a boat, bickering like siblings, playing with the kids, trying to build a business, dealing with trauma and PTSD, learning how to date again. I absolutely **loved** all of that and found myself tolerating the main plot just so I could get to the bits I liked. All of that (IMHO) was **so good** , and it worked despite the main storyline being a disjointed mess. So ultimately I ended up really liking the show, even at times loving the show, despite its overwhelming flaws. And the thing is we really haven’t seen television like this before. Marvel are forging a relatively new path here with huge budgets, a connected universe, relatively big freedom to “do _almost_ whatever they want” given to the showrunners and a commitment to diversity both on-screen and off. I think they will get better. They are taking a chance with _relatively_ inexperienced writers but are pairing them with journeyman directors along with very experienced second-unit to ensure everything just **snaps** with that Marvel sizzle. I think that inexperience showed here: but they are only going to get better. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/445 "2021-04-24T04:16:48Z")
Agreed. No the full verbatim quote in context, which we heard, didn’t make it better. ---
**Author:** ![Enjoy\_Slurm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enjoy_slurm/32/3937_2.png) [@Enjoy\_Slurm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enjoy_Slurm)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/446 "2021-04-24T06:06:53Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > Same thing with Karli. She’s giving orders to kill people as a diversion one minute, then nearly tearfully apologizing for killing Lemar the next, then throwing cars down buildings for whatever reasons, then dying with an ‘I’m sorry’, getting the full (reverse) Pietà moment? I really didn’t like this character. Just too stupidly written. She blows up a building killing tons of innocent people. Then ONE of her besties is killed after she personally kills someone and then she starts crying and says “All the killing has to stop!” And then in the very next breath she says, “Now let’s go murder a bunch more innocent people!” Also her being able to fight equally against US Agent, The Winter Soldier and new Captain America is bullshit. I guess these stupid writers think taking a make you stronger and more durable serum also magically trains your brain and body with 20 years of military combat training. And it gives you extra plus good fighting training if you have no experience at all before you take the serum over people who do have all that training before they take the serum. I hope every writer on this show gets punched in the face . ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/447 "2021-04-24T08:34:45Z")
Well, as far as Hawkeye’s proficiency goes, in _Civil War_, he has this exchange with Iron Man: Iron Man: Clearly retirement doesn’t suit you. Get tired of playing golf? Hawkeye: Well, I played 18, I shot 18. Just can’t seem to miss. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/448 "2021-04-24T12:30:07Z")
> [@Enjoy\_Slurm](#): > > Also her being able to fight equally against US Agent, The Winter Soldier and new Captain America is bullshit. I guess these stupid writers think taking a make you stronger and more durable serum also magically trains your brain and body with 20 years of military combat training. And it gives you extra plus good fighting training if you have no experience at all before you take the serum over people who do have all that training before they take the serum Sam doesn’t have serum and wasn’t fighting back. Bucky wasn’t fighting to kill, and New!Cap still isn’t used to being juiced up. But yes, she shouldn’t have done that well unless she got a lot more training from Sharon. > [@Enjoy\_Slurm](#): > > I hope every writer on this show gets punched in the face . Really? Maybe take a deep breath there. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/449 "2021-04-24T12:31:51Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > It was wholly necessary. She’s a wanted fugitive. And a pretty high profile one - former high level SHIELD agent and former CIA agent who went rogue during the super hero Civil War, added and abetted Captain America when _he_ went rogue…And she’s not only returning to the U.S. where she’s wanted for treason, she’s infiltrating a heavily secured area full of heavily armed personnel with itchy trigger fingers looking for anyone who _might_ be hostile. > > On the other hand, she then proceeds to wander around the GRC HQ _without_ the disguise, including openly interacting with security personnel, so…you might have a point, there. Look, all she really needed was a pair of sunglasses and a baseball cap. Marvel tradition. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/450 "2021-04-24T12:46:14Z")
> [@Enjoy\_Slurm](#): > > Also her being able to fight equally against US Agent, The Winter Soldier and new Captain America is bullshit. I guess these stupid writers think taking a make you stronger and more durable serum also magically trains your brain and body with 20 years of military combat training. And it gives you extra plus good fighting training if you have no experience at all before you take the serum over people who do have all that training before they take the serum. > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Sam doesn’t have serum and wasn’t fighting back. Bucky wasn’t fighting to kill, and New!Cap still isn’t used to being juiced up. But yes, she shouldn’t have done that well unless she got a lot more training from Sharon. We don’t actually know much of anything about Karli’s background. She makes some passing references to living in Madripoor’s Lowtown, and it seems like she might have grown up there. If she grew up as a street scrapper, it’s not actually unrealistic for her to take on a special operations veteran in a fight. In the real world, hand to hand combat hasn’t been a primary focus for military training for a few centuries. It’s entirely realistic for a street kid in the most crime-ridden city in the world to have more experience in actual life-or-death hand-to-hand combat than a military veteran, who would have mostly been shooting people. Heck, for all we know, Karli was a martial arts prodigy, and Donya Madani was a refugee from K’un-Lun who taught her some of the forbidden secret fighting techniques of the Iron Fist. We also don’t know much of anything about how the new Super Soldier Serum works. Maybe different people respond differently, and Karli had the strongest reaction, and is actually stronger and faster than New!Cap and Bucky (I actually think that’s what’s depicted). For that matter, Old!Cap had an elaborate process to become a Super Soldier. New!Serum is supposed to get rid of that, but Scientist Guy dies before he really explains his process. Maybe there’s more to it than just taking the ampule, and New!Cap isn’t actually as strong and fast as the Flag Smashers who got the whole process (that also actually seems consistent with what we see on screen). ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/451 "2021-04-24T12:55:21Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > We also don’t know much of anything about how the new Super Soldier Serum works. Maybe different people respond differently, and Karli had the strongest reaction, and is actually stronger and faster than New!Cap and Bucky (I actually think that’s what’s depicted). For that matter, Old!Cap had an elaborate process to become a Super Soldier. New!Serum is supposed to get rid of that, but Scientist Guy dies before he really explains his process. Maybe there’s more to it than just taking the ampule, and New!Cap isn’t actually as strong and fast as the Flag Smashers who got the whole process (that also actually seems consistent with what we see on screen). I actually did wonder about the relative levels, because I seem to recall that in the comics John Walker is much stronger than Cap because he didn’t really get the serum but rather some type of super-steroid, so his lack of skill here would make sense. I suppose we can fanwank that Sam’s been sparring with the Avengers/Cap. Bucky I guess learned how as the Winter Soldier, though you’d think getting that close would be risky if you’re “mythical.” Then again, they had him attack Fury in the middle of a major city during daylight hours, so not subtle. Also Erin Kellyman is super-cute (I know, shallow) and I hope she has a good career. How old was her character supposed to be, though? I do feel like she was ill-served by the plotline here. And I hope Batroc is not dead-such a weak exit for one of their few recurring villains. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/452 "2021-04-24T13:05:56Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I seem to recall that in the comics John Walker is much stronger than Cap because he didn’t really get the serum but rather some type of super-steroid, so his lack of skill here would make sense. In the comics, in the “main” Marvel Universe, Steve Rogers received a serum that boosted all of his physical abilities to the peak of human potential. It comes up pretty often that he doesn’t technically have any super powers - he’s “just” the paragon of humanity. He’s also usually explicitly noted as the most skilled and capable hand-to-hand combatant in the Marvel Universe (although sometimes Shang-Chi gets that distinction). In the now defunct “Ultimate Marvel” sideline, which was an attempt to update the iconic characters and introduce them to new audiences without the decades of continuity, “Ultimate” Captain America did have some level of superhuman strength. Less than the Hulk or Thor, but _far_ more than peak human ability. The MCU drew heavily on the “Ultimate Marvel” version of a lot of characters, including Cap. Meanwhile, in the “main” Marvel Universe, John Walker was Just Some Guy who cut a deal with the Power Broker, who in comics was a shady criminal figure that had a process to grant superhuman strength and resilience. Walker was _much_ stronger than Steve Rogers, super-human strength vs. peak human potential, but since the Power Broker’s process only boosted strength, Steve was faster, quicker, smarter, and a _much_ more skilled fighter. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/453 "2021-04-24T13:27:18Z")
> [@Enjoy\_Slurm](#): > > I hope every writer on this show gets punched in the face . This is not an appropriate post for Cafe Society. Maybe you meant it metaphorically, but please avoid threats of violence, and hopes for real-life violence, out of Cafe Society. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/454 "2021-04-24T14:19:44Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Meanwhile, in the “main” Marvel Universe, John Walker was Just Some Guy who cut a deal with the Power Broker, who in comics was a shady criminal figure that had a process to grant superhuman strength and resilience. Walker was _much_ stronger than Steve Rogers, super-human strength vs. peak human potential, but since the Power Broker’s process only boosted strength, Steve was faster, quicker, smarter, and a _much_ more skilled fighter. Let’s not forget the Unlimited Class Wrestling. Why not combine superheroes AND wrestling? Actually, I think it would be a funny d-plot for a series. A more substantial thought-so if this series had been released before WandaVision, would that show have had such an impact? I think the weirdness of that show helped turbocharge people for the Marvel miniseries in a way TFATWS coming first wouldn’t have managed. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/455 "2021-04-24T15:00:59Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Let’s not forget the Unlimited Class Wrestling. Why not combine superheroes AND wrestling? Actually, I think it would be a funny d-plot for a series. _Justice League Unlimited_ did an episode which was pretty much that (in the DC Universe, of course). > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > A more substantial thought-so if this series had been released before WandaVision, would that show have had such an impact? I think the weirdness of that show helped turbocharge people for the Marvel miniseries in a way TFATWS coming first wouldn’t have managed. It’s my understanding that TFATWS was supposed to stream first, but COVID delays wound up scrambling the release schedule. I personally think the original order would have worked better. A lot of the reaction in this thread, including my own, is that TFATWS was ok, but it just seemed kind of lacking compared to how ambitious and risky _WandaVision_ was. I think if TFATWS came first, more people, including me, would have been impressed by the production values and ambitious action and SFX sequences on a streaming series, then been blown away by the ambitious character and narrative choices of _WandaVision_. Instead, we got the ambitious action and SFX sequences _and_ character and narrative choices first, and TFATWS seems like kind of a narrative regression. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/456 "2021-04-24T15:20:55Z")
And I’ll still maintain that I think they wasted the character of Lemar Hoskins, who had an interesting character arc in the comics. Having more than just three Super-Soldiers running around wouldn’t have been so bad, and Walker having to cut ties with his old friend to become U.S. Agent could have been a meaningful scene. Even if “Battlestar” isn’t the best name. ---
**Author:** ![borschevsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/97f17d/32.png) [@borschevsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/borschevsky)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/457 "2021-04-24T21:05:14Z")
A bit like WandaVision, the next-to-last episode was much better than the finale. The finale was quite like the series overall: some good scenes and characterization, but kind of sloppy with lots of bits that don’t really hold together or make sense. The overall arcs for Sam and Bucky were the best part of the show. Sharon’s character didn’t really work at all, for a few reasons. And I can’t believe they changed Falcon to Captain America in the final title card, but didn’t change Winter Soldier to White Wolf. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2021, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/458 "2021-04-24T21:34:02Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > Maybe different people respond differently, and Karli had the strongest reaction, and is actually stronger and faster than New!Cap and Bucky (I actually think that’s what’s depicted). If there’s a relationship between dosage of the New!Serum and bodyweight then if all of the Flag Smashers got the same quantity Karli might have had a stronger reaction simply because she’s smaller, so she got more per unit of bodyweight than the larger men did. > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I suppose we can fanwank that Sam’s been sparring with the Avengers/Cap. Sam not only has trained with the other Avengers, including those with super strength, we also see him utilizing both his Falcon and Captain America suits to aid him in hand-to-hand combat. Again, the Wakandan captain America suit is probably comparable in many ways to Stark’s Iron Man suit(s). ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/459 "2021-04-25T01:06:08Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Again, the Wakandan captain America suit is probably comparable in many ways to Stark’s Iron Man suit(s) Yeah, we literally saw a helicopter bounce of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2021, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217/460 "2021-04-25T01:35:41Z")
I did not like the new Captain America suit they gave Sam once he took on the role. [Something like this would have been better.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/c/ca/All-New_Captain_America_Vol_1_1_Textless.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/970?cb=20140718001651) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/falcon-and-the-winter-soldier-spoilers/938217.md?page=24)