# Fall 2018 Central America migrant caravan to the US **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 22, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313 "2018-10-22T01:39:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/161 "2018-10-26T16:01:44Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I can’t believe how some people think that 7,000 refugees from violence and poverty are somehow a grave threat to the nation. First of all, it’s only a drop in the bucket in our overall immigration rates. Secondly, they pose no threat to us. > > I mean, sure, make them follow the rules and apply for asylum and send them back if they’re not accepted. But all this hang-wringing and OMG! IMMIGRANT CRISIS! is nonsense and just political theater. It just preys on people’s fears of brown people. Sadly it works. A lot of people are clearly terrified of immigrants- the fact that EVERY GOP political ad harps on illegal aliens, deporting criminals and MS-13 makes it likely that these are things that old fogeys are worried about. But I think there’s some merit in the idea of applying a broken windows policing style policy to immigration- if you make it known that we’re going to ship you back, or turn you back, maybe you can discourage a lot of the attempts in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/162 "2018-10-26T16:39:01Z")
> [@bump](#): > > But I think there’s some merit in the idea of applying a broken windows policing style policy to immigration- if you make it known that we’re going to ship you back, or turn you back, maybe you can discourage a lot of the attempts in the first place. That would work with potential immigrants who have a passable life where they are, but desire a better life. That is a lot less likely to work with people who fear for their lives or those of their children, either due to violence or starvation. We’re seeing a lot of that these days. I don’t understand the hearts of those who don’t want our nation to be a refuge for people in situations like that. No, we can’t solve everyone’s problems. But we can open the door to people like that who make their way here. They’re not showing up in anything remotely like overwhelming numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/163 "2018-10-26T16:47:14Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > They’re not showing up in anything remotely like overwhelming numbers. > [@Some right-wing doofus](#): > > Oh yeah! Well what if they all wanted to move to PhinDeli Town Buford, Wyoming? Huh? Tell that wouldn’t be overwhelming, smart guy! :mad: 😛 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/164 "2018-10-26T17:30:55Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > There has to be some significant guarding of the border. If I am one of 12,000 hungry and desperate people attempting to get into the United States and I only see a handful of people guarding the border, I would damn sure rush the checkpoint. Hysterical much? Because the caravan is **1000 miles away**. They’re traveling **on foot**. You think they’re all going to get here? There have been previous caravans formed with large numbers of people heading north from Central America. How many of them have still had a thousand or more people when they reached the U.S. border? > [@](#): > > Then when that works, the next caravan will be 100,000 people. And how would they eat while hiking 1000 miles through Mexico? But just to be nice, [some inspiring music](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbNlMtqrYS0) for them. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/165 "2018-10-26T17:37:55Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That would work with potential immigrants who have a passable life where they are, but desire a better life. > > That is a lot less likely to work with people who fear for their lives or those of their children, either due to violence or starvation. > > We’re seeing a lot of that these days. I don’t understand the hearts of those who don’t want our nation to be a refuge for people in situations like that. > > No, we can’t solve everyone’s problems. But we can open the door to people like that who make their way here. They’re not showing up in anything remotely like overwhelming numbers. In my scenario, those would likely be legitimate asylum seekers, assuming that there’s real famine and/or violence going on. And that’s the rub; just wanting to make a better life doesn’t cut it- go through the legal channels for that. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/166 "2018-10-26T17:39:58Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > That would work with potential immigrants who have a passable life where they are, but desire a better life. > > That is a lot less likely to work with people who fear for their lives or those of their children, either due to violence or starvation. > > We’re seeing a lot of that these days. I don’t understand the hearts of those who don’t want our nation to be a refuge for people in situations like that. > > No, we can’t solve everyone’s problems. But we can open the door to people like that who make their way here. They’re not showing up in anything remotely like overwhelming numbers. What is the magic number that would make you say “no more”? It’s clearly not 10,000. Also, how many of these immigrants would you be willing to take in for a year in your house? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/167 "2018-10-26T17:40:30Z")
From the [Los Angeles Times](http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-mexico-caravan-20181025-story.html): > [@](#): > > The caravan, mostly composed of people from Honduras, many on foot, has thinned since about 7,000 people crossed into southern Mexico from Guatemala in recent days. Many people crossed illegally on rafts across the river that marks the border between the two nations. > > Unofficial estimates indicated that some 3,500 to 4,000 people were in the caravan when it reached Mapastepec, about 90 miles north of the Mexico-Guatemala border. > > The U.S. border was more than 1,000 miles away. So the number of people in the caravan has diminished by half in the first couple hundred miles. If it shrinks by 50% every 200 miles, my calculator says that an invasion force of between 100 and 125 extremely tired, hungry Hondurans will arrive at our southern border shortly before Christmas. I don’t know how we can possibly stand against such an onslaught. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/168 "2018-10-26T17:42:27Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > What is the magic number that would make you say “no more”? It’s clearly not 10,000. > > Also, how many of these immigrants would you be willing to take in for a year in your house? Maybe 1 immigrant for every 1000 people in my house? I think we could manage that. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2018, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/169 "2018-10-26T18:08:11Z")
My preferred country is Monaco. May I show up at their border, after traveling through other countries, and claim asylum? Somehow, I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/170 "2018-10-27T00:38:50Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > If our military is deployed to the border as promised, would they seriously open fire on a group of women and children if ordered to? Very short answer - no. There’s a reasonable chance most or even all of these new troops won’t routinely be carrying weapons. I’ve seen some discussion that the initial DOD statement doesn’t specify component. Sending more National Guard troops under [Title 32](http://congfamilyreadiness.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/TAA-Guard-Statues.pdf) for a relatively long mission is tough given the time frames. IIRC it took us about a week and a half to put troops in airports post 9-11. There are already National Guard troops at the border like there have been for most of the time since 9-11. (Under Bush there were even NG missions supporting some Canadian border crossings.) Federal troops and NG operating under state authority have some important differences and we’re likely looking at a mix in the border area in the near future. Federal troops are legally unable to perform domestic law enforcement tasks under the [Posse Commitatus Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act) unless the exceptions in the [Insurrection Act of 1807](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_Act#Amendments) are in effect. They aren’t. That puts the deployment under the [Defense Support to Civil Authories (DSCA)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Support_of_Civil_authorities) framework. Legally they can be given non-law enforcement type tasks. Setting up temporary detention facilities if needed for CBP to process an extra surge, by setting up tents, toilets, generators, and food service would be legal. Helping CBP with adminstrative tasks like paperwork or delivering supplies would be legal. Building temporary fencing near suspected caravan crossing points to support CBP efforts would be legal. Giving the active duty troops a sector of the border to watch with orders to detain those crossing would not be a legal mission. Commanders and their supporting Staff Judge Advocates could reasonably be expected to have issues with blatantly illegal orders. NG troops, as long as not federalized, can do more. I haven’t seen if UAS (unmanned aircraft systems aka drones) monitoring of the border is currently included in the ongoing mission. It was part of the Obama administration NG mission at the border. That’s a mission that NG troops could legally perform to assist CBP. NG troops could be armed and monitor portions of the border although that’s not a mission they are currently performing. Everything I have seen about the ongoing mission has them performing tasks that don’t require their unique ability to perform law enforcement tasks. There is legal ability to adjust that mission though. That authority existed even without new deployments. It would take the Governors of the border states and the Governors of states providing troops to make the changes. Trump can’t just order ttose adjustments. There’s not a lot of need to arm troops performing the types of tasks allowed to federal troops. I could see some potential, if there’s sufficient threat, to legally provide limited self-defense capability to those operating closer to the border due to ongoing threats from well armed smugglers. That’s pretty much the same right to self-defense any civilian in the area. In theory, Rules of Engagement aren’t supposed to ever constrain that common law right of self-defense. Whether they do anyway can be arguable in some cases. National Guard, even with their ability to perform law enforcement type tasks when on state duty are generally constrained in use of force even more than the sworn law enforcement officers in the state. (Something like whether it’s acceptable to use deadly force to prevent the escape of a violent felon that presents a risk to others but not an immediate threat is an example that might see a difference.) That’s a wormhole of differing border state laws. It probably is either just self-defense or very close for NG troops. The ROE should pretty clearly lay out the acceptable use of force. That gives commanders and their lawyers time to flip out if the ROE seems to authorize the illegal use of force. The image of sleepy-eyed active duty killers staring down the barrels of their weapons at the border isn’t accurate unless this skews ways off into the blatantly illegal. So far it’s being presented entirely in the realm of legal usage of the military. It’s a much more boring and less “shooty and stabby” reality. They’ll be doing things far more like the multiple deployments inside the US to support civil authorities that have already happened this year…and every year. We regularly manage to avoid troops massacring civilians. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/171 "2018-10-27T01:23:05Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > Very short answer - no. … This is one of the most fantastically informative post I’ve seen on the SDMB in quite some time. Excellent work! ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/172 "2018-10-27T01:24:55Z")
The caravan exposes the main point of divergence on the immigration issue: There are those who think the default position should be “Allow immigrants in unless there is a valid reason they should be kept out,” and there are those who think that the default position should be “Keep immigrants out unless there is a valid reason they should be let in.” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/173 "2018-10-27T01:58:08Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The caravan exposes the main point of divergence on the immigration issue: There are those who think the default position should be “Allow immigrants in unless there is a valid reason they should be kept out,” and there are those who think that the default position should be “Keep immigrants out unless there is a valid reason they should be let in.” That’s actually very well put, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/174 "2018-10-27T02:03:46Z")
Aye; well done **Velocity**. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/175 "2018-10-27T02:55:08Z")
[Obama today](https://apnews.com/06ec76cf0cf14a4fa0cc5aeefdf7ba82): > [@Barack Obama](#): > > Now the latest, they’re trying to convince everybody to be afraid of a bunch of impoverished, malnourished refugees a thousand miles away. That’s the thing that is the most important thing in this election. Not health care, not whether or not folks are able to retire, doing something about higher wages, rebuilding our roads and bridges and putting people back to work. Suddenly, it’s these group of folks. We don’t even know where they are. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/176 "2018-10-27T03:03:42Z")
[Well isn’t this just great](https://apnews.com/6cb0dae384cd45ddb9efe49a6aab1789): > [@](#): > > Militia groups and far-right activists are raising money and announcing plans to head to the Mexican border to help stop the caravan of Central Americans, echoing President Donald Trump’s attacks on the migrants making their way toward the U.S. > [@](#): > > The U.S. Border Patrol this week warned local landowners in Texas that it expects “possible armed civilians” to come onto their property because of the caravan. > > Three activists told The Associated Press that they were going to the border or organizing others, and groups on Facebook have posted dire warnings about the caravan. One said it was “imperative that we have boots on the ground.” Another wrote: “WAR! SECURE THE BORDER NOW!” > > The militia members said they plan to bring guns and equipment such as bulletproof vests and lend a hand to the Border Patrol to protect against people unlawfully entering the country. > > “They’re just laughing in our face,” said Shannon McGauley, president of the Texas Minutemen. “It’s a free-for-all in America.” > > McGauley said he already has members at three points of the state’s border with Mexico and expects to add 25 to 100 more people in the coming days. > [@](#): > > Monica Marin, an Oregon resident, said she has raised about $4,000 online to help militias buy supplies. She argued that members of the caravan are dangerous, echoing Trump’s claim that “unknown Middle Easterners” are mixed in with the crowd. There is no evidence to support those claims. (Read an AP fact check here .) > > “I see young, fighting-age men who do not look like they’re starving. They look like they’re ready to fight,” Marin said. At the same time, she said: “We’re trained. We’re not hotheads. We’re not out there to shoot people.” > > Marianna Trevino Wright, a South Texas resident who is director of the nonprofit National Butterfly Center, said she is more fearful of the militias than the caravan. > > “We go about our business here every day in a peaceful manner,” Wright said. “The idea that we could be invaded not by illegal immigrants but by militia groups … is regrettable, and it will end badly.” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/177 "2018-10-27T07:17:02Z")
And suddenly I’m considerably more okay with the military being there. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/178 "2018-10-27T11:34:58Z")
“Laughing in our face”…guess what, we are laughing in YOUR face. You’re so fragile, you feel compelled to deploy weaponry against a slow trickle of dirt poor children, women, and men who are desperately FLEEING the kind of armed threat you pretend to pose… Get a life, loser! ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/179 "2018-10-27T11:41:32Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > My preferred country is Monaco. May I show up at their border, after traveling through other countries, and claim asylum? > > Somehow, I doubt it. So do I, since you wouldn’t have a valid claim. Try Galt’s Gulch. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2018, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313/180 "2018-10-27T11:47:59Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [Obama today](https://apnews.com/06ec76cf0cf14a4fa0cc5aeefdf7ba82): For a moment, I was about to check upthread to see the rest of (Doper) **Barack Obama** ’s post. Then my brain kicked in. (It’s still early.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-2018-central-america-migrant-caravan-to-the-us/823313.md?page=10)