# Fall of the Roman Empire **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2011, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333 "2011-09-06T00:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/61 "2011-09-20T03:23:31Z")
As has already been hinted, there really was no “Germany”, but merely a number of tribes all speaking dialects that were more or less mutually intelligible, and with some of these tribes having recently settled in the areas still bearing their names, such as Saxony, Swabia,and Bavaria. (Or being in the process of settling; I’m a little hazy on the chronology). At any rate, this might be part of the reason the Romans underestimated the threat from the north. The real threat in their eyes, at the time, was probably beyond the eastern frontier, namely the Persians. Another possible factor was the worsening conditions of life for small farmers; beginning with Diocletian, domestic land policy increasingly clamped down on the privileges and freedom of such farmers, and is said by some to have been the beginning of Western European [serfdom](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serf#History_of_serfdom). Once you’ve arrived at the status of serf, it doesn’t make much difference to you whether your landlord’s name is Flavius or Adalbeorht. With that being the case, one could hardly count on the average Roman “non-citizen” to be a fount of patriotic fervor, spurred on to fight and die for the Emperor. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/62 "2011-09-21T00:44:48Z")
the city of rome fell to invading goths but the empire persisted for another 1,000 years in constantinople. ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/63 "2011-09-21T07:05:37Z")
I might add that when Charlemagne was crowned, people celebrated that they now again had an emperor. In other words, 9th century people in Western Europe believed they lived in the Roman Empire, they just hadn’t had an emperor for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/64 "2011-09-22T04:09:18Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > the city of rome fell to invading goths but the empire persisted for another 1,000 years in constantinople. I know the fad was quite a few years ago, but your omission to capitalize _goths_ has suddenly put a different light on this whole period of Italian history. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/65 "2011-09-22T11:54:52Z")
I feel the need to point out that there was a mockumentary on one of the faux history channels this past week on Rome. They made the claim that the sacking of Rome by the barbarians in =/- 400 AD was the only time they were sacked… Of course the sacking by the Celts after the Battle of Allia in BCE 390ish never happened :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/66 "2011-09-22T12:26:49Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > I know the fad was quite a few years ago, but your omission to capitalize _goths_ has suddenly put a different light on this whole period of Italian history. It’s about damn time! I’m tired of Paris always getting all the goth credit, since rome was twice as decadent and violent as Paris ever was! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/67 "2011-09-22T14:30:10Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > It’s about damn time! I’m tired of Paris always getting all the goth credit, since rome was twice as decadent and violent as Paris ever was! Hey, Paris wasn’t Goth. He was a Trojan. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/68 "2011-09-22T14:42:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Hey, Paris wasn’t Goth. He was a Trojan. Ah, an _East_-Roman ! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/69 "2011-09-22T14:58:25Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I feel the need to point out that there was a mockumentary on one of the faux history channels this past week on Rome. They made the claim that the sacking of Rome by the barbarians in =/- 400 AD was the only time they were sacked… > > Of course the sacking by the Celts after the Battle of Allia in BCE 390ish never happened :rolleyes: Well, the Celts were basically French, right ? Can’t have sacked all that much, obviously. Surrender monkeys and that. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/70 "2011-09-22T16:09:23Z")
That’s the first time I’ve heard the French accused of not having a lot of sacks… ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/71 "2011-09-22T16:59:27Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I feel the need to point out that there was a mockumentary on one of the faux history channels this past week on Rome. They made the claim that the sacking of Rome by the barbarians in =/- 400 AD was the only time they were sacked… Rome has taken it on the chin a [number of times](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome). I have a really hard time not despising the History Channel on general principle ;). ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/72 "2011-09-23T03:27:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, the Celts were basically French, right ? Can’t have sacked all that much, obviously. Surrender monkeys and that. 😛 Actually the Celts that thrashed the Romans at that point in time actually lived in Northern Italy. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Rome has taken it on the chin a [number of times](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome). > > I have a really hard time not despising the History Channel on general principle ;). My dream job would be as a researcher/fact checker for documentaries, except I would be indicted for murder after about a year of my notes on the corrections needed to be made being ignored by the producers … it is a joke around the house that you can tell when I am watching some documentary by the resounding yells of “bullshit” emanating from the bedroom … Second favorite dream job would be wading through SF/fantasy slush piles for Baen or Tor. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/73 "2011-09-25T09:47:03Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > They would have had the Sahara to defend their southern border and the relatively unpopulated Russia to the east, so I think they would have survived much longer if they had only invaded and conquered Germany when they had the chance. Maybe. Another argument is that they became too peaceful themselves, partly due to religion, and let in too many barbarians. > [@](#): > > By imperial times, this effort had succeeded so well that the Romans saw themselves as being inherently less violent than the “barbarians” beyond their borders. By creating a pacified and submissive population, the empire also became conducive to the spread of Christianity—a religion of peace and submission. In sum, the Roman state imposed a behavioral change that would over time alter the mix of genotypes, thus facilitating a subsequent ideological change. [Frost, P. (2010). The Roman State and genetic pacification, Evolutionary Psychology, 8(3), 376-389,](http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP08376389.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/74 "2011-09-25T13:08:09Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Maybe. Another argument is that they became too peaceful themselves, partly due to religion, and let in too many barbarians. > > [Frost, P. (2010). The Roman State and genetic pacification, Evolutionary Psychology, 8(3), 376-389,](http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP08376389.pdf) How surprisingly to see you advancing such tripe. Sheer stupidity that claim (right out of Just So 19th century History stories, like so many other items…), the Roman army had become more or less one with the ‘barbarians’ ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/75 "2011-09-25T16:27:09Z")
Alaric & most of his followers were Christian, although of the Arian variety. (Note to racist lackwits: Not “Aryan.”) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/76 "2011-09-25T17:20:47Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Alaric & most of his followers were Christian, although of the Arian variety. (Note to racist lackwits: Not “Aryan.”) Right, which makes the inept, 19th c theorising about genetic and relgious ‘pacification’ all the more bizarre and stupid. So Romans became genetically weak in a couple generations… right rigorous thinking there. If one needed any other illustration of what Ev.Psych is nothing more than a sad excuse for retarded, primitive grasping at science as of c. 1870… ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/77 "2011-09-25T23:00:17Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > If one needed any other illustration of what Ev.Psych is nothing more than a sad excuse for retarded, primitive grasping at science as of c. 1870… Hell didn’t Gibbon advance Christianity as a cause of Rome’s decline in the _1770s_? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/78 "2011-09-26T00:29:19Z")
That thesis also doesn’t address the fact that the eastern part of the empire was just as Christian, and just as peaceful, and lasted for another millennium. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/79 "2011-09-26T09:34:53Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Alaric & most of his followers were Christian, although of the Arian variety. True, although that isn’t the only factor [Frost cites](http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/EP08376389.pdf) as contributing towards the population becoming more peaceful. The state monopoly on violence was another factor: > [@](#): > > Second, the Roman state made violence against individuals an offense against the community. All citizens were given access to law courts and, more importantly, the courts could enforce their decisions (Liebeschuetz, 2006, p. 40)… > > This legal environment stood in contrast to the one beyond the northern borders of the Roman state. “Barbarians” took the law into their own hands. Law courts did exist but their rulings had to be enforced by the aggrieved party. There was no State enforcement:… > > Feuding began easily and lasted indefinitely because of the readiness to meet violence with violence. For all these reasons, a private individual was much likelier to kill or be killed in barbarian society than under Roman administration (Liebeschuetz, 2006, p. 46)… > > Thus, while the empire was not a closed system, there was relatively little gene flow from outside until the century before the fall of Rome. Long before then, observers were already commenting on the differing temperaments of Romans and barbarians. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333/80 "2011-09-26T11:28:25Z")
Peter Frost seems[fairly harmless](http://pages.globetrotter.net/peter_frost61z/) but has some [weird followers](http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2011/03/rhonda-garelick-despises-aryan-beauty/). (Latter site is NSFW–although the nekkidness is all European Classical Art stuff.) Boy, can you pick them or can you pick them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fall-of-the-roman-empire/595333.md?page=5)